Genetic Potential and upper limits!!!!?

[vader-nator]

In my family, no one has had a record of prostate problems. However that didn't stop me from taking preventative measures years ago through supplementation and stopping milk consumption and products made from it. It's a deep subject that would require a separate article by itself and would mean hijacking your thread. Don't wish to do either at the moment Rob.


Fadi.

Good Call Fadi, I will get the ball rolling.

Best Rob
http://ausbb.com/bodybuilding-training-discussions/9757-prostate-care-foods-drugs.html

 

[Fadi]

Steroids brings people past their upper limits. Or, it is an easier way of getting to their upper limits without nearly as much effort.

If you mention the word limit, then that by itself would negate the action of exceeding since limit in itself signifies some form of restriction or some inability to "pass over/exceed". So in a nutshell, steroid can help an athlete realise his upper limit but not exceed it.

One can climb his "tree of potential", however once at the top, no extra amount of steroids or anything else would help him go any further.

One of the biochemical reactions that steroids do well is to enhance glycogen synthesis activity in the skeletal muscle. Now you know why Monday always seems a great muscle pump day (after having the weekend off loading on some heavy duty pasta etc).


Fadi.

 

[-LJ-]

What about a natural limit? I guess there would be an un-natural limit as well? Some people may break past their natural limits with steroids but their un-natural limit is still well below the likes of Jay Cuter or Ron Coleman in terms of bodybuilding?

 

[vader-nator]

What about a natural limit? I guess there would be an un-natural limit as well? Some people may break past their natural limits with steroids but their un-natural limit is still well below the likes of Jay Cuter or Ron Coleman in terms of bodybuilding?

That is really closer to my mark.

I am basically trying to make sense of my world with this thread.

I am now and always will be drug free. As far as I am concerned the Tree of potential only applies to guys who are drug free.

The tree of potential has been meddling with Dr Jekylls potion...

I would rather say that the present day GH monsters are way into dumbness territory. Tree of potential is miles behind. These dudes are mutations of humanity. The next step will be genetic modification. The poor old tree of potential has been left in the garden of eden with Adam and Eve.

To me the tree of potential refers to drug free.

 

[Fadi]

To me the tree of potential refers to drug free.

I may have misunderstood your earlier comments Rob. The tree of potential still satnds solid as far as AAS are concerned. However now I find the subject has changed and has indeed gone up a level...to

genetic modification

That makes for an interesting discussion and one that I find myself agreing with based on what I like to call genetic manipulation (similar to your "modification").

Here's some interesting article if anyone's interested:

Genetic Code Intervention
Can science change our destiny?
http://www.healthy.net/scr/Article.asp?Id=2398​

Your Genetic Code Is Not Carved in Stone
http://www.beinghealthynaturally.com/health/geneticcode.php​

Fadi.​

 

[Oli]

I'm not bothered by Joe Average. No-one has a moral duty to become strong, fit, or buff-looking. (They do have a duty to be healthy, but that's a lot easier to do.)

I'm just pointing out that putting an extra 1kg on their squat is not a thing the typical person worries about. When we're talking about physiological limits to our performance, not only is it true that you or I are far from having to worry about those limits, but "Joe Average" isn't coming even within shouting distance of them.

Whenever someone quotes Casey Butt's or Lyle McDonald's work, there's always a howl of protest from a bunch of 60kg scrawny teenagers or 110kg fat guys about how this won't be a limit for them, honest, they'll bust through these limits with hard work and UberAnabolicMassGainer6000. And it's ridiculous, because they're so far under the limits today. It'd be like me saying I was going to bust through the 300kg bench press barrier when I barely do an 85kg bench press. Nice to have a long-term goal, but let's have some realistic short-term goals in the meantime. Let's see me do 100kg, 130kg, and so on first.

It's important to keep in mind just where you are, or where most of us are. And that is far, far below any physiological limits we have. So far below that those physiological limits are basically irrelevant. Much more relevant is the limit of how often we can be bothered getting off our arses to lift or run, how much good food we're willing to eat, and so on.

Mate, I'm agreeing with you.

This is my 5c:

By 'Joe Average' I'm not talking about your average couch potato but your 'Joe Average' bodybuilder/powerlifting - someone with average genetics who slogs it out in the gym for a couple of years to get a 220kg squat.

I hate the 'you can do anything' approach, because you just can't. Theres a reason why raw records for the squat (without juice) seem to stagnate around 600 - because there are physical limits people reach, and to get beyond them requires a crawl of a pace.

From what I've seen a person with typical genetics who gives powerlifting a solid go can build a 500kg raw total in the first year, maybe a freak of a rugby player with nothing else to do could build to 600, but even at these 'moderate weights' the road to the next 20kg disc on each lift is a very slow climb, and if done correctly by the 3-5th year of training it will fizzle out to hardly anything without extreme effort.

Take that Arlecchino guy on bb.com - the guys dedicated his entire life to powerlifting and the highest his gotten is just scraping below a 800kg raw total.

Limits, even for the average lifter, need to be considered.

 

[vader-nator]

Mate, I'm agreeing with you.



I hate the 'you can do anything' approach, because you just can't. Theres a reason why raw records for the squat (without juice) seem to stagnate around 600 - because there are physical limits people reach, and to get beyond them requires a crawl of a pace.


Limits, even for the average lifter, need to be considered.

Yep.... Thats what I have been getting at.

My training is not for the feint of heart. 20 + years of diaries all point to the same spot.

When I reach critical mass I just come to dead stop.

Actually it gets worse.

My strength remains but my massiveness gets a bit less.

I seem to become a more effective unit for the work I am doing and the body decides that I don't need to be so huge to do the same task. When that happens I get fed up and switch to different workouts or even stop. When I start up again the climb is always to full size.

Our bodies must have an economical size limiter which has to do with how well our neurones fire and learn to perform the lift. I am sure that at a certain point I am actually stronger and smaller. I hope this makes sense.

That is why I am so cranky with the training diaries at the moment. I want bigness but it always seems to be a cycle. Never a constant.

I only get big on the comeback.... then I reach max.... then I stay as strong but get a bit smaller.

Rob

 

[Fadi]

What about a natural limit? I guess there would be an un-natural limit as well? Some people may break past their natural limits with steroids but their un-natural limit is still well below the likes of Jay Cuter or Ron Coleman in terms of bodybuilding?

Ah, now that you've clarified and expanded on it LJ, I can not help but agree with you Sir.


Fadi.

 

[PowerBuilder]

why is an athlete considered un-natural if the use gear, when they are simply icreasing the ammount of hormones in theif body ?

 

[-LJ-]

why is an athlete considered un-natural if the use gear, when they are simply icreasing the ammount of hormones in theif body ?

PowerBuilder do you think an Olympic 100m sprinter is natural if they inject steroids into their muscles which were made in a laboratory?

 

[Kyle Aaron]

Because they are increasing them to levels no human would ever reach normally - naturally.

Remember that this is going to have an effect on them long-term. Nobody has done clinical trials of the effects of mixing large amounts of testosterone, growth hormone, insulin and so on - they couldn't do those clinical trials, because they'd carry too large a risk of long-term damage, and would thus be unethical.

These people are using themselves as guinea pigs for a medical experiment. And they are not scientists, either. Just look at all the bullsht out there about physical training, about something as simple as lifting up something heavy and putting it down again. Now just imagine all the bullsht they must encounter about these drugs and their effects.

Now load up your syringe... No way, mate. It's crazy.

 

[vader-nator]

One of my mates in the 1990's was on loads of horse steroids.

I asked him what his doctor said about that. He said he had never seen a doctor or ever had his blood looked at.

He used to like to munch on raw carrots. LOL

I said to him that I thought he was messing with nature. His reply. "A horse is a big mammal. So am I....."

It's all just funny.

What ever you need to do to fill the space you need to be in.

LOL

But for me personally.

No thanks on the drugs. Never have never will.

Rob

Because they are increasing them to levels no human would ever reach normally - naturally.

Remember that this is going to have an effect on them long-term. Nobody has done clinical trials of the effects of mixing large amounts of testosterone, growth hormone, insulin and so on - they couldn't do those clinical trials, because they'd carry too large a risk of long-term damage, and would thus be unethical.

These people are using themselves as guinea pigs for a medical experiment. And they are not scientists, either. Just look at all the bullsht out there about physical training, about something as simple as lifting up something heavy and putting it down again. Now just imagine all the bullsht they must encounter about these drugs and their effects.

Now load up your syringe... No way, mate. It's crazy.

 

[BoyFromAus]

One of my mates in the 1990's was on loads of horse steroids.

I asked him what his doctor said about that. He said he had never seen a doctor or ever had his blood looked at.

He used to like to munch on raw carrots. LOL

I said to him that I thought he was messing with nature. His reply. "A horse is a big mammal. So am I....."

It's all just funny.

What ever you need to do to fill the space you need to be in.

LOL

No thanks.

Rob

oh god.

is he ok now? human hormones are one thing but horse hormones are just insanity. I remember seeing a case where a disabled man was crying because when he was young, his dad pumped him with that for growth. I don't know exactly what happened but i think his muscle grew too fast for his ligaments and tendons to handle.

 

[kindred]

Do you have a pic Vador? I wanna see what you mean as far as being close to maxing your potential drug free, thanks.

 

[vader-nator]

Do you have a pic Vador? I wanna see what you mean as far as being close to maxing your potential drug free, thanks.

Dude nothing recent except the blue shirt pic but am beginning to slow down again since starting up again in spring.

Sample poundage

Superset Pre Ex triceps
Push downs on a heavy cable 150Lb x 8 (just 20 sec rest )
Dips with just me 7 or 8 reps

Arm pump 19.5 inches. 110kg

Superset Pre Ex
Seated dumbell 2 arm lateral raises. 50lb x15 ( just 20 sec rest )
BTN press 4 sec up Iso 2 sec 5 sec negative 125lb x 7 or 8 reps

All my joints are a problem so I have to use tricks to make it hard without lifting tonnage.



Here is me in the distant past 1996. At present I am double this size but fatter. See blue shirt pic.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

If I saw him, he would frighten me.

I'd say if that's the genetic limit, that's nothing to cry over.

 

[tonyharrison]

Here is me in the distant past 1996. At present I am double this size but fatter. See blue shirt pic.

you were taller back in 96 too. look at you tower over that metal fence compared to now. lots of squats and deadlifts to blame maybe

 

[The Hulk]

you were taller back in 96 too. look at you tower over that metal fence compared to now. lots of squats and deadlifts to blame maybe

Maybe the fence grew just as Vader grew?

 

[Kyle Aaron]

Maybe the neighbours saw a big bloke with a Vader mask on stomping around his backyard, got scared and built a bigger fence.

 

[PowerBuilder]

you guys are daft, Vadar is obviously closer to the fence



Mate if you've reached your natty genetic potential, then book me on a flight because that looks just fine to me! Have you used anything like deep heat cream for any of your joints ? I've got some serious elbow pain happening these days