Which Machine?

[vonfram88]

I love the hammer strength gear. I would quite happily train on that equipment as a substitute for many of the free weight movements. The deadlift machine is brilliant and it's nearly impossible to get yourself bent out of shape during the movement.

 

[McFLy]

Ed Coan did them, I think Kaz did as well. I still do them on occassion but I'm not strong.

I love the hammer strength gear. I would quite happily train on that equipment as a substitute for many of the free weight movements. The deadlift machine is brilliant and it's nearly impossible to get yourself bent out of shape during the movement.

Just use a trap bar it gives u the same palms faceing grip for deads. I see guys week in week week out moving hundreds of kilos on levers and pulleys, and they all stay the same size wise. One just has to wonder how much of that cable weight translates in to real weight. I say use your machines but limit it to one machine per body part per session. Weather bulking or cutting u will get better results on free weights. Any one who disagrees should go back to school and learn physics.

 

[sandman]

Just use a trap bar it gives u the same palms faceing grip for deads. I see guys week in week week out moving hundreds of kilos on levers and pulleys, and they all stay the same size wise. One just has to wonder how much of that cable weight translates in to real weight. I say use your machines but limit it to one machine per body part per session. Weather bulking or cutting u will get better results on free weights. Any one who disagrees should go back to school and learn physics.

I'm certainly no advocate for excessive cable/machine use. Heck, I use them sparingly, being a (tryhard) powerlifter not a bodybuilder. Having said that I have met people who use them almost exclusively and have excellent muscularity/physiques/strength. Granted most of them had plenty of experience with free weights for years to build a base.

Explain this physics you talk of. I am curious.

 

[McFLy]

Exactly free weights built the base. Machines will never replace the base u can't build a base on machines heck I don't see the point of leg curls and extensions. What makes me cringe inside is seeing skinny dudes who want to get big bypass chins for lat pulls and shoulder presses ect for machine work. It's fair to say if you Are advanced by all means include them , but one should never prioritise them over free weights or discard the fundimentalS that got them there size in the first place. I bet if u put two guys with identical genetics (clone) through two routines one machine one free weights the free weighted one would dwarf the clone. I use to use machines I waisted countless hours on them with pull overs cable rows ect I went back to basics and 3 months of growth smashe d what I did for a few years on machines ( those years are what are I call my lazy years). I waisted my time supplementing basics for gadgets . any way each to there own I guess

 

[McKwl]

I don't see the point of leg curls

So... let me get this straight: first you suggest that people go and study physics, then soon after, reveal a staggering lack of awareness of basic biomechanics. Now, that's not my field (of study) - nowhere near! - but I do know a few things... like this and this, for example. Just out of curiosity, what do *you* do to work the Biceps Femoris, Short Head? For starters.

What makes me cringe inside is seeing skinny dudes who want to get big bypass chins for lat pulls and shoulder presses ect for machine work. It's fair to say if you Are advanced by all means include them , but one should never prioritise them over free weights or discard the fundimentalS that got them there size in the first place.

And hey, how much can you (strict) press overhead, for how many reps? Also, what's your reps and added weight like, for (strict, from a dead hang) chinups/pullups?

each to there own I guess

Exactly.

 

[McFLy]

So... let me get this straight: first you suggest that people go and study physics, then soon after, reveal a staggering lack of awareness of basic biomechanics. Now, that's not my field (of study) - nowhere near! - but I do know a few things... like this and this, for example. Just out of curiosity, what do *you* do to work the Biceps Femoris, Short Head? For starters.


And hey, how much can you (strict) press overhead, for how many reps? Also, what's your reps and added weight like, for (strict, from a dead hang) chinups/pullups?


Exactly.

What's your point ? Who cares if I can ohp 20 or 120 the point is even if I do 20 I'm gunna get better results with a barbell on 20 than a machine on 120. It's called logic and common sense. Any way I'm over debating about junk machines..who cares about curls if I want to hit hammys ill do rdls and hyper extensions. I CBf bringing up countless study's ect like I said each to there own if u like machines by all means use then

 

[Bazza20]

What's your point ? Who cares if I can ohp 20 or 120 the point is even if I do 20 I'm gunna get better results with a barbell on 20 than a machine on 120. It's called logic and common sense. Any way I'm over debating about junk machines..who cares about curls if I want to hit hammys ill do rdls and hyper extensions. I CBf bringing up countless study's ect like I said each to there own if u like machines by all means use then

So you OHP 20?

 

[McFLy]

So you OHP 20?

Figure of speech...

 

[wingman]

i do

 

[McKwl]

There ya go, then.

It's one of my pet theories that those who rail against machines and all that other "weak" stuff (training methodologies definitely included) are extremely likely to be highly opinionated powerlifter types and/or interweb blowhards who can lift fuck all, and probably look like it too.

Not saying I can lift all that much myself (yet), but hey, I'm not making dem dere claims.

 

[vonfram88]

Just use a trap bar it gives u the same palms faceing grip for deads.

Actually the hammer strength rickshaw style deadlift machine offers a normal grip position if you want it. Put half a dozen plates on either side and it feels like it might be doing something similar to a heavy deadlift.

 

[0ni]

Then there are guys like me who are completely shit at pressing yet still have pretty ridiculous shoulders
The freeweight vs machine argument is stupid

 

[RyanF]

Just use a trap bar it gives u the same palms faceing grip for deads. I see guys week in week week out moving hundreds of kilos on levers and pulleys, and they all stay the same size wise. One just has to wonder how much of that cable weight translates in to real weight. I say use your machines but limit it to one machine per body part per session. Weather bulking or cutting u will get better results on free weights. Any one who disagrees should go back to school and learn physics.

My favourite part of this thread was when you were challenged to explain/justify this statement, and dodged the question. Perhaps you should practice what you preach.

I'm no expert on physics, but one issue I am aware of (and that has very easily observable influences on resistance training) is torque. Torque increases as an object moves further away from the line of gravity, making it effectively heavier.

Torque is why DB lateral raises are at their hardest right at the top -- with the DB hanging at your side, torque is very low, and so it doesn't take much muscle activation to keep the DB there; with the DB at arm's length away from the body, torque is very high, and so it takes a lot of work to hold the DB there. However, if you use a cable machine, with the pulley anchored off to the opposite side to the arm you're pulling with, the line of force is changed from straight up and down to diagonal, which influences torque in such a way as to require a more even amount of work in the deltoids throughout the ROM, rather than having minimal load at the bottom with the load escalating as you approach the top.

Another example: if you keep your elbows in the same place (not moving them backwards or forwards throughout the movement), DB/BB curls will experience the highest torque when the forearms are parallel to the floor. People will often use all kinds of body English to get past this point in the curl, because of the high torque. The high torque in this position and the lower torque at the top and bottom mean potentially less overall work throught the ROM. However machines may allow a line of force that produces more work throughout the full ROM.

Another example: heavy squats. There's a reason why good technique on squats means keeping the bar over the middle of your feet -- if you don't, torque escalates the effective load, and if you're squatting a heavy enough load to be able to expect improvements in size and strength, you can also expect that the increased load from the increased torque will bring you one step closer to epically failing.

Since squats are normally performed by deliberately minimising torque, machines that change the direction of force may not be of much benefit; however, for exercises that do use torque, machines that change the direction of force can add a whole new level to the workout.

Regardless of anything I've just written, one of the main ingrediants for growth is progressive overload of the muscles. If a machine allows you to apply progressive overload (and I can't recall ever touching an exercise machine that doesn't), then it has a place in bodybuilding. It may not be ideal or relevant to your goals/needs, but that doesn't mean it isn't a worthy tool for building muscle.

 

[McFLy]

There ya go, then.

It's one of my pet theories that those who rail against machines and all that other "weak" stuff (training methodologies definitely included) are extremely likely to be highly opinionated powerlifter types and/or interweb blowhards who can lift fuck all, and probably look like it too.

Not saying I can lift all that much myself (yet), but hey, I'm not making dem dere claims.

Post up a pic of your self we will see who looks better for bodybuilding purposes (no homo) your pet theories are invalid and bodybuilders stuck with free weights before machines and got awesome gains, u obviously have no idea of bodybuilding history. Google John grimek, Steve reeves ect they never used 1 machine! Btw it's not about how much u can lift but are clearly naive so it's okay I like blokes like u that use machines it just means the real equipment is more free

 

[McFLy]

And btw I didn't say machines are totally useless i said free weights are better compared to machines.

 

[McFLy]

My favourite part of this thread was when you were challenged to explain/justify this statement, and dodged the question. Perhaps you should practice what you preach.

I'm no expert on physics, but one issue I am aware of (and that has very easily observable influences on resistance training) is torque. Torque increases as an object moves further away from the line of gravity, making it effectively heavier.

Torque is why DB lateral raises are at their hardest right at the top -- with the DB hanging at your side, torque is very low, and so it doesn't take much muscle activation to keep the DB there; with the DB at arm's length away from the body, torque is very high, and so it takes a lot of work to hold the DB there. However, if you use a cable machine, with the pulley anchored off to the opposite side to the arm you're pulling with, the line of force is changed from straight up and down to diagonal, which influences torque in such a way as to require a more even amount of work in the deltoids throughout the ROM, rather than having minimal load at the bottom with the load escalating as you approach the top.

Another example: if you keep your elbows in the same place (not moving them backwards or forwards throughout the movement), DB/BB curls will experience the highest torque when the forearms are parallel to the floor. People will often use all kinds of body English to get past this point in the curl, because of the high torque. The high torque in this position and the lower torque at the top and bottom mean potentially less overall work throught the ROM. However machines may allow a line of force that produces more work throughout the full ROM.

Another example: heavy squats. There's a reason why good technique on squats means keeping the bar over the middle of your feet -- if you don't, torque escalates the effective load, and if you're squatting a heavy enough load to be able to expect improvements in size and strength, you can also expect that the increased load from the increased torque will bring you one step closer to epically failing.

Since squats are normally performed by deliberately minimising torque, machines that change the direction of force may not be of much benefit; however, for exercises that do use torque, machines that change the direction of force can add a whole new level to the workout.

Regardless of anything I've just written, one of the main ingrediants for growth is progressive overload of the muscles. If a machine allows you to apply progressive overload (and I can't recall ever touching an exercise machine that doesn't), then it has a place in bodybuilding. It may not be ideal or relevant to your goals/needs, but that doesn't mean it isn't a worthy tool for building muscle.

How to Weight Train for Maximum Muscle Gain - Build-Muscle - will explain why machines don't build stabilesrs and if u want better growth then u need strong stabilesrs.



http://www.castonline.ilstu.edu/mccaw/hpr482/EMGREAD_files/4065 mccaw & friday bench press.pdf. Read this u will see why u get more growth


Pavel Tsatsouline - Power To The People.pdf download - 2shared. Read this u will see why over isolating body parts will lead to injury.


I won't beat around the bush once In a while ill use a seated calf raise machine not very often. I'm not into power lifting I'm more into bodybuilding. Machines are like trains on a fixed track u can get derailed easly because u can't go around if there is an obstiicle or an injury u will collide with it.


Top 10 Injury Causing Machines in Gyms The War on Bullshit read this If u are so smart. I know trust me machines butcherd my joints since I got rid of those junk towel racks my body is 100% better




I don't give two shits if I offend any one because I know I'm right don't get sucked in by Joe weider crap and all that other science crap do it properly use free weights. The Spartans the Greco roman soldiers all used free weights. Don't be a square avoid them like the plague. At least with pushdowns and lat pulls u can sort of manipulate your position to a certain extent but those hammer strengh peices of crap and nautilus u are in a train that's gunna derail u at any time. The warnings there.


Peace
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[Darkoz]

McFly give it a fucken rest mate.
No-one is saying that machines are better than free weights
This thread is about which machine is the better one in comparison to other machines.

Although you are the one being silly by saying things like "avoid all machines like the plague"

 

[McFLy]

My favourite part of this thread was when you were challenged to explain/justify this statement, and dodged the question. Perhaps you should practice what you preach.

I'm no expert on physics, but one issue I am aware of (and that has very easily observable influences on resistance training) is torque. Torque increases as an object moves further away from the line of gravity, making it effectively heavier.

Torque is why DB lateral raises are at their hardest right at the top -- with the DB hanging at your side, torque is very low, and so it doesn't take much muscle activation to keep the DB there; with the DB at arm's length away from the body, torque is very high, and so it takes a lot of work to hold the DB there. However, if you use a cable machine, with the pulley anchored off to the opposite side to the arm you're pulling with, the line of force is changed from straight up and down to diagonal, which influences torque in such a way as to require a more even amount of work in the deltoids throughout the ROM, rather than having minimal load at the bottom with the load escalating as you approach the top.

Another example: if you keep your elbows in the same place (not moving them backwards or forwards throughout the movement), DB/BB curls will experience the highest torque when the forearms are parallel to the floor. People will often use all kinds of body English to get past this point in the curl, because of the high torque. The high torque in this position and the lower torque at the top and bottom mean potentially less overall work throught the ROM. However machines may allow a line of force that produces more work throughout the full ROM.

Another example: heavy squats. There's a reason why good technique on squats means keeping the bar over the middle of your feet -- if you don't, torque escalates the effective load, and if you're squatting a heavy enough load to be able to expect improvements in size and strength, you can also expect that the increased load from the increased torque will bring you one step closer to epically failing.

Since squats are normally performed by deliberately minimising torque, machines that change the direction of force may not be of much benefit; however, for exercises that do use torque, machines that change the direction of force can add a whole new level to the workout.

Regardless of anything I've just written, one of the main ingrediants for growth is progressive overload of the muscles. If a machine allows you to apply progressive overload (and I can't recall ever touching an exercise machine that doesn't), then it has a place in bodybuilding. It may not be ideal or relevant to your goals/needs, but that doesn't mean it isn't a worthy tool for building muscle.

Pretty much u are just weak and takeing short cuts u probably train at jetts and dont have much choice in regards to equipment or have insufecent knowledge or training experience and just cut and pasted alot of crap that someone else wrote down.


Another example: heavy squats. There's a reason why good technique on squats means keeping the bar over the middle of your feet -- if you don't, torque escalates the effective load, and if you're squatting a heavy enough load to be able to expect improvements in size and strength, you can also expect that the increased load from the increased torque will bring you one step closer to epically failing.

Since squats are normally performed by deliberately minimising torque, machines that change the direction of force may not be of much benefit; however, for exercises that do use torque, machines that change the direction of force can add a whole new level to the workout-


^ that point above is useless in regards to strengh and form is self taught not a machine predicting your path.




DB lateral raises are at their hardest right at the top -- with the DB hanging at your side, torque is very low, and so it doesn't take much muscle activation to keep the DB there; with the DB at arm's length away from the body, torque is very high, and so it takes a lot of work to hold the DB there. However, if you use a cable machine, with the pulley anchored off to the opposite side to the arm you're pulling with, the line of force is changed from straight up and down to diagonal, which influences torque in such a way as to require a more even amount of work in the deltoids throughout the ROM, rather than having minimal load at the bottom with the load escalating as you approach the top.


^ to this point I say if its hard strenghn your stabilesrs. And if u are going higher than the line of shoulders it's a trap based movement.


Regardless of anything I've just written, one of the main ingrediants for growth is progressive overload of the muscles. If a machine allows you to apply progressive overload (and I can't recall ever touching an exercise machine that doesn't), then it has a place in bodybuilding. It may not be ideal or relevant to your goals/needs, but that doesn't mean it isn't a worthy tool for building muscle.[/QUOTE]


^ really???


You are wrong the that weight u are lifting doesn't transfer over to muscle torque as well. It's like a jack any one can lift a 2 tons like any one can have a 200 kilo bench press on machine. It's artificial because the fact is u can't bench with out shoulders and if u are putting 200 kgs on your chest alone u will snap it up. U need to re check your ingredients. U won't see any machine mass building routines.

 

[Stiffy]

um ah Louie. Ryan trains at one of the best gyms in Brissie if I'm correct. Ryan is also either a P.T. or training to be one. All the best.

 

[McFLy]

[FONT=.HelveticaNeueUI]http://www.boxingscene.com/build-muscle/10077.php - will explain why machines don't build stabilesrs and if u want better growth then u need strong stabilesrs. [/FONT][FONT=.HelveticaNeueUI]
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[FONT=.HelveticaNeueUI]http://www.castonline.ilstu.edu/mccaw/hpr482/EMGREAD_files/4065%20mccaw%20%26%20friday%20bench%20press.pdf. Read this u will see why u get more growth [/FONT]
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[FONT=.HelveticaNeueUI]http://dc581.2shared.com/download/dXBbtvDu/Pavel_Tsatsouline_-_Power_To_T.pdf?tsid=20130127-015851-b1a5c6f6. Read this u will see why over isolating body parts will lead to injury. [/FONT]
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[FONT=.HelveticaNeueUI]I won't beat around the bush once In a while ill use a seated calf raise machine not very often. I'm not into power lifting I'm more into bodybuilding. Machines are like trains on a fixed track u can get derailed easly because u can't go around if there is an obstiicle or an injury u will collide with it. [/FONT]
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[FONT=.HelveticaNeueUI]http://thewaronbullshit.com/2009/09/21/dangerous_exercise_machines/ read this If u are so smart. I know trust me machines butcherd my joints since I got rid of those junk towel racks my body is 100% better [/FONT]
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[FONT=.HelveticaNeueUI]I don't give two shits if I offend any one because I know I'm right don't get sucked in by Joe weider crap and all that other science crap do it properly use free weights. The Spartans the Greco roman soldiers all used free weights. Don't be a square avoid them like the plague. At least with pushdowns and lat pulls u can sort of manipulate your position to a certain extent but those hammer strengh peices of crap and nautilus u are in a train that's gunna derail u at any time. The warnings there.[/FONT]
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[FONT=.HelveticaNeueUI]Peace [/FONT]