How much do drugs help?

[trofius]

If you put in the hard yards you will get a boost from it no doubt, But i have seen young guys take roids and still train like crap, they get fat, and puffy looking, but their lifts only go up a fraction, when they stop its like they didnt do it in the first place. idiots looking for a quick fix..

But obviously Marcos is referring to professional athletes that know how to train, and or have reached a limit or plateau in their performance and want a boost..They will definetley get benefits, train harder, more often and recover better, has to help..

Roids were once described to me as just allowing you to reach your potential but much quicker. But in that shorter period of time you will put in a lot more training / intensity.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

If anyone at PTC for more than one month can be shown to use steroids or HGH, I will buy and consume a can of NOXplode.

Let's not turn this into another fed vs fed fight. I'm tired of that bollocks. That's all about egos, the more federations there are the more Presidents there can be. One fed would mean just one President, someone would have to go, none of them want that. Nothing to do with drugs or suits or anything like that, let's be honest. Each of them allow stuff which helps the lifter lift more, doesn't rely purely on their strength. It's ego clash.

Lift heavy. Take drugs or use a suit and your lifts are much less impressive, and with drugs you will almost certainly harm your health long-term. Lifting can change your health, performance and looks. Health should always come first, put looks or performance first for many years and you'll harm your health.

I'm not impressed by the person who lifts a tonne and looks so good they make people spontaneously orgasm at 20 and... is crippled or dead at 50.

 

[PTC]

Are you allowed to type out the different esters without getting banned Nathan.

I'm only joking, all you militant PA lifters keep your knickers on.

Thats a good point Nathan, I wonder what % of users get even 10% of the results the top guys get?

Another topic, I think Paul touched on this earlier, what if a lifter lifts in an untested fed for years, is a known user, sits out the required period to get the shit out of his system, then keeps a % of the gains because he used Tren, Anavar, HGH, Masteron, and then joins PA, clears the tests, and goes about setting records?

I know of at least one lifter who has done this. You PA guys should also know.

How do you consider that lifter?

 

[Dancelot]

Out of interest, how much do equipments help? Around the same: 30%?

 

[PTC]

Kyle, there are lifters on my record boards who have taken plenty of steroids, and dont deny it.

 

[PTC]

Out of interest, how much do equipments help? Around the same: 30%?

I can do the same chart, CAPO equipped V raw

 

[Totalstrength]

This is a good one.

Marion Jones, its obvious that the testing technology is behind. They would have gave her 2 choices admit it or they will do it for her. after the technology cought up.

Ben Cousins? AFL?

Capo/PA if you like going on the juice or other stuff you can still compete in capa, If you are clean PA is for you.

 

[strong enough?]

Another topic, I think Paul touched on this earlier, what if a lifter lifts in an untested fed for years, is a known user, sits out the required period to get the shit out of his system, then keeps a % of the gains because he used Tren, Anavar, HGH, Masteron, and then joins PA, clears the tests, and goes about setting records?

I know of at least one lifter who has done this. You PA guys should also know.

How do you consider that lifter?

It happens. There's one record set by someone who previously got banned, served the suspension, came back clean and set a record again (but not nearly as high as the record that got scrubbed due to the failed test).

I don't like the scenario you described, but what can be done about it?

Sporting bodies that test generally have discretion to refuse to admit as members people who have a bad record on drugs, whether it be prior suspensions or convictions for possession/dealing banned substances but they can't stop everyone. On the other hand, there are circumstances where people who have used and come clean should be given a second chance.

But this hypothetical lifter - he will have an advantage over the clean lifter, whether the clean lifter is in a tested fed or non-tested fed. So in the end, it's a bit of a moot point. But I don't think it means we should give up on the doping issue.

 

[Rugby88]

I think at the end of the day put 2 lifters together that are the same, have the same diet, lift the same etc etc etc one takes drugs and one doesn't and the drug user will be stronger.

Simple as that.

Drug use or not, equipment or not.. if your lifting heavy ass weight you have my respect....

 

[chrisp]

Another topic, I think Paul touched on this earlier, what if a lifter lifts in an untested fed for years, is a known user, sits out the required period to get the shit out of his system, then keeps a % of the gains because he used Tren, Anavar, HGH, Masteron, and then joins PA, clears the tests, and goes about setting records?

Great point markos, I know and have seen first hand this happen in proffesional boxing, mainley because of the time frame between fights.

Its why i believe manny wouldnt fight mayweather 6 months back.

 

[macmad]

I can do the same chart, CAPO equipped V raw

not going to work, simply due to the raw records being too new.

My best equipment carryover ( from IPF equipment )
Squat 80kg including wraps. First did 280kg when my raw was about 200, now my raw has increased to 230-240, but won't know for a few weeks if I've managed to keep the same carryover.
Wraps alone I've got 22.5kg carryover. Same comp 2nd attempt was a grind at 230, put wraps on for a 252.5kg grind 3rd attempt

Bench 60kg, benched 200kg when my best raw was 140kg. Now I think my raw is about 145 but I'm struggling with 180 in the shirt. I'll be pretty happy if I can get the 200kg again at nationals.
Deadlift: best raw 250kg, best suited 272.5kg. My sumo carryover was 40kg but still didn't get me to where my raw conventional was.

some lifters get great carryover, some don't. sustaining it at an elite level is hard, as you get stronger raw it's harder to get the same carryover I think.
I've heard Richie doesn't get much.

 

[PTC]

Thats a great example.

There you have it, I would guess you actually get more from gear than gear.

I'll let you guys decipher that lol

Raw is too raw to compare with equipped lol

Any other equipped guys have examples?

 

[Totalstrength]

After Richard puts his knee wraps on he bends his knees and stands up by himself he might as well not even use them. Hes an extremely strong raw lifter.

 

[strong enough?]

Thats a great example.

There you have it, I would guess you actually get more from gear than gear.

I'll let you guys decipher that lol

Raw is too raw to compare with equipped lol

Any other equipped guys have examples?

How much you get depends on how you train.

Paul is currently getting some of the best carryover on the equipment. I've currently gotten at the most 10kg out of a bench shirt, because I'm shit at it and don't practise enough

We train almost always train raw, and only put on equipment the week before comp as practice. Knowing what raw training weights some people use, I would estimate on average:

* squat suit plus knee wraps gives about 15-20% - most of it is probably from the knee wraps.

* 15-25kg from the bench shirt.

* deadlift equipped generally gives you very little unless you're built in a way that makes you a much better sumo deadlifter. Also depends on where your weakness is - off the floor or locking out.

As Paul's figures show, your raw strength might go up, but this might be at the expense of equipped practise and technique changes, so the equipped stays the same or goes backward.

 

[PowerBuilder]

Interesting debate. Anabolic / Androgenic steroids obviously help. To what degree? Well, it's obviously a varying level, due to an athletes experience, current conditioning, strength level & technique.

Any stat's provided can always be argued. Obviously when somebody says their bench shirt allows them to bench xkg more than when raw, that's a different breed of animal than what an entire record board says to another record board.

I'd love to see an untested olympic weightlifting competition.

 

[macmad]

We train almost always train raw, and only put on equipment the week before comp as practice.

as a competitor I can't understand this at all. It's a bad legacy from the shirts of the 80's and 90's that you didn't need to train in.
You already own the shirts and suits, if you don't train to maximise the carryover you are only hurting yourself and giving your competitors an advantage.

I compete both raw and equipped, and once PA introduces raw I'll probably spend more time working on raw as it's easier on my body, and reduces the training time needed. But if I'm working towards an equipped comp I'll do everything legal to ensure my equipped numbers are maximised.

 

[PTC]

I have to agree with Paul on this. I have very limited experience with equipped, my wife competed in 2007 equipped.

Her best raw bench was 72.5kg, equipped it was 77.5 in comp. She hated training in it, therefore got little carry over.

While I dont believe you should neglect raw lifting, if your going to lift equipped, most of your training should be done the way you compete.

Nina always rated knee wraps the best bit of assistance gear, more than anything else. She has squatted 125kg equipped, only 92.5kg raw in competition.

She has deadlifted more raw than equipped, in competition.

 

[The Laughing Man]

I'd guess drugs, id done properly would give about 10% on the total at the elite level, maybe 15%.

Equipment varies, but I'd guess that not many people, if any in PA get more carryover than macmad. I get about 50kg from suit/belt/wraps in the squat(205 to 247.4), 25kg in the bench press(127.5 to 150), and I'm guessing about 10kgs in the deadlift.

I wouldn't say most of your training should be equipped, but a decent portion of it needs to be. More if you need work on technique in equipment, and less if your technique is already down pat. I do about 4 weeks or so in equipment before each comp.

 

[Spritcha]

I don't get the crazy carryover Paul gets and I train in equipment frequently- I think that carryover is part skill, but I think that how you train also determines where your raw is at as well- and I also believe leverages come into it.

For example, it is possible that someone with a big difference between equipped and raw may just not be so great at raw due to the fact they don't train in a way that builds raw strength. Raw training, for someone with my leverages, also often builds strength in the same part of the lift where equipment gives the greatest support. If you get someone who is awesome at lockouts, but sucks off the chest they stand to get the better carryover from a bench shirt over someone who is stronger off the chest, but weaker at lockout. For eg, I have trained a few times with Bostock- the guy with the biggest bench ever in CAPO (330kg)- raw off the chest I can lift more than him, but add boards and he absolutely wipes the floor with me.

My raw squat is around 325kg, best equipped 370kg- so 45kg from wraps and suit
My raw bench is 230kg, best equipped 280kg- 50kg from shirt
My best raw deadlift is 295kg- best equipped is 300kg- so 5kg from suit
I'm pretty sure Richie and I are very similar strength raw for squat and bench, he kills me in deadlift.

 

[Paullie]

macmad did you come to the CAPO WA State Finals? What did you think. I agree with you about the, lets say, flexible judging.

But I dont agree that all lifters should be painted with the same brush, I for one definately dont take drugs, never have and never will. I do understand though that when you compare a lift between PA/CAPO, the assumption is easily made.