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Theory i have

CT, I agree with you.

Studies like to measure muscle fibre after event, when many are already good or bad, but they don't tell us about the same people's fibres when they started. They don't really know.

Like a lot of theory, it is merely calculated bs.

Yes, there are genetic advantages, say the average Nigerian compared to average ethiopian in terms of power potential, but a person will go a long way with sensible traning towards the sport they love.

No doubt that genetic potential may separate few at top, but I reckon most can go a long way with right training.
 
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Interesting piece on fibres, and whether they can be altered.

'Since world-class sprinters typically have 65-85 percent fast-twitch muscle fibers – and vice versa for world-class distance runners and slow-twitch fibers – it’s unclear how much they were able to create that biological advantage and how much they were simply born with it'.

I like conclusion '“Fiber type is only a percentage of your performance,” said Zuniga. That percentage is approximately 40, as some studies have shown.The takeaway: Don’t forget about the other 60 percent

http://running.competitor.com/2014/02/training/how-do-muscle-fibers-determine-speed_67060
 
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It's much easier to train a human the wrong way and turn them into a monkey. I see it all the time at fitness first!

They come at night, mostly Fridays.

They (the Friday night crew) might have the intelligence of monkeys, but that alone wont make them monkeys lol.

just idiots.
In time, Crippled ones.
 
if we were "born" with a ratio, then why would sport specific training be so vital to success?

this genetics myth has to stop, you can change your twitch fibre ratio, with time and specific training/lifestyle.

I do find this topic fascinating...

When you say "sport specific training" ( and using football as an example) do you mean training night (skills work) on the field?

Or doing specific work in the gym?
like copying movements using resistance that mimic movements used on the field?
Other than your and on top of your general tool box of exercises, squat, push/pull type stuff?
 
vonframm, did you actually do proper Olympic lifting training.

I jerked 137.5kg off a rack when pressing behind neck 87.5kg at 80-81kg bw, but I dont think I had much talent. I just practised it for a few years.

You may have surprised yourself with more specific training.

I never did anything properly. A weightlifting coach tried to teach me in my late 20s but the damage had already been done; Power clean = fast jumping reverse curl. Jerk = pushing press with a faster start.
 
'Its fairly simple the more explosive and dynamic an athlete can become the stronger they will be'.

Is that true? Why then are many of the top NRL forwards not necessarily the strongest players in teams in terms of lifting weights.

Simple each sport requires skill and power, and only freaks get the balance right. training in terms of sport specificity is key.

Powerllifting would be one of the few sports on the planet where one factor, absolute strength, is the defining factor for success.

Olympic lifting obviously moves away due to importance of skill and speed, and need to practice it.

Rugby and AFL, which also requires other factors such as courage and endurance, move even further away from reliance on strength alone.

Huh? What do you mean why are NRL forwards not necessarily the strongest players in terms of lifting weights?

Not sure if it was directed at my comment - sorry mate...
 
i was just indicating how absolute strength just one factor for say NRL forwards.

For example, Anthony Watmough not as strong as others, but his skill levels make him a much more dynamic and effective player in his position.


Same is true in nfl, some of the best bench press performances at combine don't translate into NFL success.
 
I do find this topic fascinating...

When you say "sport specific training" ( and using football as an example) do you mean training night (skills work) on the field?

Or doing specific work in the gym?
like copying movements using resistance that mimic movements used on the field?
Other than your and on top of your general tool box of exercises, squat, push/pull type stuff?

definitely a footballer trains on the field, not on cement, not in the water

but thats a bad example, the better example is of certain bodytypes

A mathon runner is always skinny with slow twitch dominance, well a sprinter until eg 25yr old can become a marathon runner with ten years SPECIFIC marathon running training, thats how our body adapts, thats how our body decides its fibre ratios, its governed by what we do, day in day out

We are a product of our environment and what we do in it, i used to be able to jump crazy high, being very skinny and skateboarded every day at a high level, now after over ten years of lifting weights, my body responds completely differently, yet im still the same genetics

People dumb down things, and call it genetics because we dont understand or simply cant be bothered explaining
 
A mathon runner is always skinny with slow twitch dominance.

Better ring Dan Karnazes and tell him he isnt skinny enough, and needs to do more "sports specific training" to be a better runner...

We are a product of our environment and what we do in it.

We are also a product of thousands of years of genetic evolution...

People dumb down things, and call it genetics because we dont understand or simply cant be bothered explaining

All those genealogists must be a running joke in the science community.
 
As a few of us have said, the speed/dynamic days originate from equipped/multiply lifting, with very little corelation to raw lifting.

Take a look at russian programming, there is NO speed day, every single rep is focused on speed and acceleration. The only benefit for a raw lifter with a lighter/dynamic day is more practice with form, a bit of active recovery etc. Although triples at 60% (or whatever is prescribed) sounds pretty dull, boring.

I believe someone asked Boris Sheiko at his seminar where he includes speed stuff in the programs. He said "every rep is done with maximum speed". Sort of makes sense to me. (especially for raw lifting)

I'm only new to equipped stuff but I don't really see the need for specific speed work there either. If you have equipment on that already helps generate bar speed what is the purpose of training that? Saw bench press for example, bar rockets off the chest, main thing required is back strength to stay tight and pull it down to chest and then tricep strength to lock out. Where does the speed part come into it?
 
I find particular interest in the "force plate" experiment.

The Truth About Fast-Twitch
and Slow-Twitch Muscle Fibers:
An Interview with John P. Kalas, M.D.The following excerpts are from 1976 discussions I had with Dr. John Kalas,
who was Chief of the Department of Pathology, West Volusia County
Hospital, DeLand, Florida. A subsequent article was published in Athletic
Journal
(January 1977) as a rebuttal against the popular practices of
coaches and athletes to "train fast to be fast." The concepts
explored within these answers are as relevant today
as they were 30 years ago.by Ellington Darden, Ph.D.​
Ellington Darden: John, tell us about your interest in strength training and muscle physiology?
John Kalas: I was involved in weight training in high school and played several sports. As a teenager, I had an ongoing curiosity about my muscles, what made them stronger, and how growth occurred at the cellular level.
That interest was carried through college, medical school, a three-year residency in internal medicine, a year research fellowship in physiology, and finally a four-year residency in pathology. During my residency in pathology, I had considerable exposure to muscle physiology at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology. My background includes a full 10-year period at the Walter Reed Army Medical Center and 50 published research studies.
It's unfortunate that people with my experiences, or similar experiences, cannot have personal associations with coaches, who are attempting to combine the disciplines of muscle physiology and athletics. This is a common situation that exists in most areas.
The laboratory scientists communicate with each other, but rarely with physicians in the field of disease rehabilitation. These physicians have knowledge that is easily interchangeable with coaches. Unfortunately our society keeps most of us (laboratory scientists, physicians, and coaches) so busy that we are unable to communicate in a productive manner with each other.
This massive amount of information, thus, remains disjointedly scattered throughout the literature without the basic information ever reaching the athletes who need it the most.
ED: You're certainly on target with your assessment. Was there a specific topic that repeatedly caught your attention?
JK: One particular aspect of muscle physiology seems to be a recurring subject of discussion in almost every sports or fitness publication that I've recently read. Although this topic is very complex, it's usually referred to as the concept of fast-twitch, slow-twitch muscle fibers.
As usual, attempts to simplify complicated subject matter frequently lead to misunderstanding. This has certainly been the case in the fast-twitch, slow-twitch area.

Muscular Contraction
ED: Before we get into a discussion of fast and slow fibers, can you briefly describe how a muscle contracts?
JK: The answer is theoretical and complicated. There are however, three areas that can be discussed with relative certainty.
The first way a muscle contracts is through a conscious command from the brain. The second way is through what is called a reflex arc. The third method is through a conditioned reflex, as demonstrated initially by Ivan Pavlov and his dogs. Athletes use all three of these ways constantly in their practices and competitions.
Even more complex is the mode by which the muscle itself contracts. Albert Szent-Gyorgyi, the famous Hungarian biochemist, demonstrated that the chemicals, actin and myosin, contract in the presence of adenosine triphosophate (ATP).
Later it was determined that this contraction is modified by some 70 or more enzymes and/or chemicals. This applies whether the muscle is called slow, fast, red, or white. Furthermore, this underscores the complexity of the problem of muscle contraction when it is considered along with the influences of the nervous system.

Fast and Slow Confusion
ED: How do the concepts of fast-twitch, slow-twitch muscle fibers relate to athletics?
JK: Classically, the fast-twitch fibers are white and the slow-twitch fibers are red. (The colors are determined by muscle samples, appropriate stains, and microscopic examinations.) Many coaches contend that fast-twitch, white fiber development is necessary for fast athletic activity and that slow-twitch, red fibers are necessary of slow athletic activity.
Unfortunately, it's demonstrated in nature that the non-flying domesticated animals, such as chickens, have white breast muscles and red leg muscles. The fast flying wild fowls, such as ducks, have red breast muscles but white leg muscles.
Furthermore, most authorities believe that there are fast and slow red fibers and fast and slow white fibers in animals. In humans, however, these authorities believe that the differences between the two are less than in animals.
In truth, no one knows very much about the various fiber distributions in humans. In addition, it is believed that at least eight (and probably more) fiber types are prevalent in animals.

Humans Are Different
ED: So, you're saying that the muscle fiber types in humans are different from those found in animals, right?
JK: I'll answer that with probably. The muscle fiber types in humans have not been well defined. It's believed that as one progresses up the phylogenetic scale, the differences in muscle fiber types diminish. Only a few muscle biopsy specimens have supplied the data that have resulted in the sweeping conclusions drawn by many coaches and athletes.

Muscle Biopsy
ED: What exactly is a muscle biopsy?
JK: A muscle biopsy consists of cutting through the skin and taking a small strip of muscle, usually for diagnosis of disease states by chemical and microscopic techniques. It can also be performed with a large bore needle. A biopsy is usually taken from the surface of a muscle.
For accurate determination of muscle types, however, entire cross sections of muscle with corresponding physiological studies would be necessary. This is not practical in humans.
To make some inroads in this area, without securing complete cross sections of muscle, would mean taking at least three levels of biopsies from one muscle. And at each level, several hundreds of biopsies would be necessary for statistically significant muscle counts to be made. Such research has not been attempted.
ED: I guess it should be fairly obvious that NO athlete (or human) is going to allow scientists to take multiple biopsies from the same muscle at three different levels. "Hey Doc, please take three plugs from my biceps and another three plugs from my triceps. And here, do the other arm too." That entire process could injure the involved muscles, right?
JK: (Laughing . . . ) Correct. With animals, it's been done, but it hasn't been accomplished with humans – for obvious reasons (still smiling). As a result, very little is known about white and red muscle distributions in humans – especially among highly skilled athletes.
Note: One of highlights of being friends with Dr. John Kalas was the time
he invited me to his laboratory to watch him perform an autopsy on
a person who had problems with the heart, liver, and upper arms.
John provided me with a close look at the liver and heart, as
well as the fatty deposits surrounding the gut. Plus, he also
collected multiple biopsies from the biceps and triceps.
What a meaningful experience that was to me.​
Fast Exercise for Fast Muscles: Be Cautious
ED: Okay, so translate your experience and beliefs concerning muscle fibers to strength training – does doing an exercise fast make you faster?
JK: It is impossible to simplify muscle fibers into white fast and red slow. It is equally impossible to simplify muscular contraction into fast exercise for faster movement and slow exercise for slow movement.
Coaches, therefore, should be very cautious about having their athletes perform fast exercise for fast muscles. There is little basis in science for such a recommendation.
Also, coaches need to be aware that performing fast repetitions is dangerous.

The Danger of Training Fast
ED: What's wrong with performing fast repetitions?
JK: So there is no misunderstanding, I want to define what I mean by "fast." When a barbell, dumbbell, or machine repetition exceeds the muscle's ability to contract, or the tool is thrown rather than lifted, then that is too fast.
As an example, let's examine a barbell overhead press being performed by a subject standing on a force plate connected to a recorder. (A force plate is a delicate measuring device that is used to measure changes in force.) If the subject presses and lowers the barbell in a slow, smooth manner, a steady force is recorded throughout the entire movement. On the other hand, a fast movement applies force to only a small portion (usually at the start and at the end) of the repetition.
After the start of a fast repetition, the barbell is actually lifting the subject's arms (due to momentum). The force applied during the start of the fast movement can often amount to several times the weight of the barbell (a 100-pound barbell for an instant could weigh from 200 to 300 pounds).
Yanking muscles, and that is exactly what is happening, does not build strength. Instead, it exposes the joints, muscles, and connective tissues to danger. Force causes injury, and throwing a weight certainly increases the force.
For the best results from strength training, athletes should perform slow, deliberate repetitions. They should raise the weight smoothly (with minimum acceleration) and lower the weight slowly under full control.
Returning to the example of a barbell overhead press, while standing on a force plate, if you move at a faster pace than approximately 3 seconds on the positive and 3 seconds on the negative, then the bleep running across the scope begins to flutter significantly – which is an indication of too much changing force.
Thus, 3-seconds lifting and 3-seconds lowering seems like a reasonable guideline to follow on each repetition, which is relatively slow when compared to the fast styles that most coaches and athletes utilize.

Skill Training
ED: At Florida State University, I studied extensively about the need for strength training to be general and skill training to be specific. Since most skills are best performed quickly, motor learning experts recommended that skill practice be done at full speed. What has your neuromuscular study and experience shown you about skill learning?
JK: I agree with the motor learning experts. The neuromuscular pathways for the development of various sports skill must be mechanized through repeated, competition-like practices. Strength training needs to be based on the general functions of the major muscle groups. Skill is specific and strength is general.
Perhaps most importantly: Do not try to simulate in the weight room what happens on the athletic field. Many coaches fail to grasp this principle and instead, jump aboard the misleading philosophy based on power cleans and explosive bench presses.
Once again, coaches who recommend fast lifts are doing a disservice to their athletes. Such lifting so can lead to neuromuscular confusion and possible injuries.
Coaches would do well to remember the following: Skill train fast; strength train slow.

Five Basic Guidelines
ED: Thanks, John, for your astute answers. Do you have any final thoughts?
JK: Since we've been kicking around this topic (the talks took place over several days), I phoned an old friend from my Walter Reed Hospital days, Dr. Harold M. Price, former Chief of Muscle Branch, Armed Forces Institute of Pathology.
Dr. Price emphatically stated that I should be as strong as possible in my conclusions about fast-twitch and slow-twitch muscle fibers. He said that absolutely no one can draw conclusions about human muscle fiber distributions, or tell athletes how to train, from the animal experiments and the few biopsies performed in humans to date.
From my personal study and experience, I offer the following guidelines:

  • Training fast will not make an athlete faster.

  • Fast-speed repetitions are dangerous.

  • Strength training should be performed with heavy weights, which should be lifted smoothly for approximately 8 to 12 repetitions, until momentary muscular failure.

  • Training slow will not make an athlete slower.

  • Moving fast is required in most skill training and practice must be identical to competition for the best learning to occur.
 
Research UpdateIn the last 30 years, has new research shed light on any of Dr. John Kalas's conclusions about fast-twitch and slow-twitch muscle fibers?
No and yes.
I would not change any of his five bulleted points. They are all excellent guidelines to apply in strength training for sports and bodybuilding.
Unfortunately, coaches and athletes in their strength exercise – perhaps more than ever – are still training fast to be faster.
Again, there is almost no valid research to show that fast-speed repetitions are productive. Large-scale muscle biopsies, at three different levels, on multiple muscles are still not practical with humans.
But there has been some relevant findings concerning human muscle fibers. Douglas Brooks, in his book, Effective Strength Training, does a fine job of summarizing the latest on muscle fibers and the order in which each classification contributes to repetitive contractions during a resistance exercise.
Most authorities today organize slow-twitch and fast-twitch muscle fibers into three categories:

  • Slow Twitch (ST) for the fibers that perform low-intensity, long-duration activities.

  • Fast Twitch IIb (FTIIb) for the fibers that perform high-intensity activities. These are the strongest fibers and have the most potential for hypertrophy.

  • Fast Twitch IIa (FTIIa) for the intermediate fibers that fall in between low-intensity and high-intensity activities.
Human muscle, according to Brooks's review, is governed by a ramp-like recruitment pattern.

Ramp-Like Muscle-Fiber Recruitment
In any strength-training exercise, performed in a high-intensity manner (for example, 12 repetitions to failure), the ST fibers are involved initially. To continue after 4 repetitions, the ST fibers also require the intermediate FTIIa fibers, which assist with repetitions 5, 6, 7, and 8. Then, with ramp-like progression, the strongest FTIIb fibers – which have been held in reserve – are finally called into action and help to complete repetitions 9, 10, 11, and 12.
Important: It's the intensity of the exercise, not the speed of movement, which determines the muscle-fiber involvement. Light resistances, or low-intensity efforts, involve mostly the ST fibers and perhaps some of the FTIIa fibers. Heavy-resistance exercises, carried to momentary muscular failure, involve all three fiber types: ST, FTIIa, and FTIIb.
There is no way to involve only the FTIIb fibers. Muscle fiber ramping or ordering prevents this from being possible. The bottom of the ramp (ST) is always used first.
Maximum, single-attempt lifts require all three fiber types. Explosive repetitions do the same. And don't forget, both maximum lifts and explosive repetitions are infused with high acceleration and excessive momentum – which increase the probability of injury.

Say NO to . . . Train Fast to Be Fast
Dr. John Kalas's 1976 guidelines concerning fast-twitch and slow-twitch muscle fibers still hold true today.
The valid research reported in the last three decades reinforces his beliefs.
It's prudent, therefore, to disregard the popular practice of . . . train fast to be fast. It deserved only minor attention among coaches and athletes in the 1970s.
It merits even less today.
 
definitely a footballer trains on the field, not on cement, not in the water

but thats a bad example, the better example is of certain bodytypes

A mathon runner is always skinny with slow twitch dominance, well a sprinter until eg 25yr old can become a marathon runner with ten years SPECIFIC marathon running training, thats how our body adapts, thats how our body decides its fibre ratios, its governed by what we do, day in day out

We are a product of our environment and what we do in it, i used to be able to jump crazy high, being very skinny and skateboarded every day at a high level, now after over ten years of lifting weights, my body responds completely differently, yet im still the same genetics

People dumb down things, and call it genetics because we dont understand or simply cant be bothered explaining

Yea, all good [MENTION=7521]C_T[/MENTION]; but I'm asking for your explanation on "sport specific training"
 
I did really well in middle distance cycling and now I'm doing well in strength sports
"genetics"?

Maybe I just try harder, or simply want it more
 
Nice posts Silverback, enjoy reading your contributions.

I generally agree with the five points and articles in regard to strength training.

All sports: skill and conditioning, leave the speed movements to the actual practice in sport, and use weights as conditioning.

Outside weight lifting sports, don't see that much need for olympic/powerlifts, although basic movements such as bench and squats great choices as conditioning exercises. In other words, lift to strengthen targeted muscle for sport, rather than lift to get most weight up.

But this is a different argument from changing fibres which I referred to earlier. I still think many can go a long way with right training.
 
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No worries.
[MENTION=6618]spartacus[/MENTION];

It's a complex topic and I don't think it can be fully understood at this level as I have no background or intellect, but are you basically saying that specific training methods can change the characteristics of twitch fibers and the order these TF's recruit?

i just cannot get my head around this.

can you give me an example?
 
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