My Off-Season Mass routine

[Vandal]

You are missing something. Someone benching 80 kg for a few sets isn't going to overtrain especially when doing only 45min workouts a day. It's just not that much stress on the body.

Take an advanced lifter benching 180+, squatting and deadlifting over 300kg they have much more chance of overtraining because the are lifting huge weights that can cause big stress on the body.

Overtraining isn't something beginner and intermediate lifters need to worry about.

Is 80kg to a beginner not identical to 120kg for someone more advanced?
You have less muscle so it takes less weight to fatigue the muscle. Your body is lighter and weaker so it takes less weight to stress it?

So a beginner who can't lift heavy since he has little muscle mass cant stress his body or over train cause he doesn't have muscle mass yet, that doesn't make sense to me. I have always assumed over training happen to beginner more then advanced lifers as the body has not adapted yet to the stress level.

 

[Bazza20]

I'll guarantee it's not the same stress.

A beginner deadlifting a max lift of 100kg is a lot less stressful than a more advanced lifter deadlifting 300kg.

The advanced lifter is much more efficient and stronger so the stresses are much higher.

 

[Vandal]

I'll guarantee it's not the same stress.

A beginner deadlifting a max lift of 100kg is a lot less stressful than a more advanced lifter deadlifting 300kg.

The advanced lifter is much more efficient and stronger so the stresses are much higher.

Yes it is more actual weight but is it not relative to their physical size and what their body can take. Not just the fact they haven't lifted before.

 

[Vandal]

I class myself as intermediate and i bench reps for 110kg bench and 100% have overtrained before. I know people that have burnt out and had a sessions off from lifting less and not being at my level from overtraining.

So to say it is near impossible to overtrain without being advanced seems hard to believe. Just my opinion and what i have seen not saying anyone is wrong.

 

[Bazza20]

Yes it is more actual weight but is it not relative to their physical size and what their body can take. Not just the fact they haven't lifted before.

Everyone is going to be different but what I am saying is its not worth wasting your time worrying about it especially at the beginner and intermediate stages. Begginers and inters are just not strong enough and cant train hard enough to cause overtraining. Sure they make get fatigued or sore but that is not overtraining.

By the time you become advanced you will know your limits and what you need to do anyway.

 

[Vandal]

Everyone is going to be different but what I am saying is its not worth wasting your time worrying about it especially at the beginner and intermediate stages. Begginers and inters are just not strong enough and cant train hard enough to cause overtraining. Sure they make get fatigued or sore but that is not overtraining.

By the time you become advanced you will know your limits and what you need to do anyway.

My opinion is even if it may or may not make a difference why not do a few less working sets to failure just in case you do over train and you will also have an understanding of over training.

I really do believe 3 working sets to failure is a bit much and can be reduced, i would love to see what others think the appropriate to failure sets per exercise is, before the risk of burning out happens down the track.

If all working sets were not to failure and only the last set was then the need for high ATP levels and the risk of cortisol and overtraining diminshes way down to nearly nothing.

 

[rino60]

Vandal, I completely understand where you're coming from with trying to ensure maximum ATP levels, and limit the possible detriment from an increase in cortisol levels - but does this possible benefit (from removing a possible detriment) out-weigh the loss of 'muscle-building-ness' from performing that extra set?

I doubt the OP is performing his exercises with anything approaching the intensity that DY uses in his 1/2 set per exercise workouts; I doubt there are many of us who can work out with such precision, efficiency, and intensity.

On the other hand, if you believe the OP is working out with that kind of intensity, how could he possibly work out his arms to full fatigue with maximum intensity more than just the once a week? If they were worked sufficiently (to total destruction on delts day) he would be struggling to get full benefit come chest day two or three days later.

Many studies exist showing the detriment to overall test levels from workouts in excess of one hour - but can you show me some of these studies that employ high intensity weight training with approximately two minute rest intervals between each set, in a subject chasing not increased strength, but hypertrophy?

Like has been said many times before, in this thread and many others. Each body sitting in front of all of these keyboards is different. Therefore each of them must be treated differently (regardless of how minute those differences are). I for one think that the OP should utilize between 60-90 seconds for resting intervals if he is chasing hypertrophy (his thread title is 'My Off-Season Mass Routine).

(sorry guys, this thread looked too fun to just sit on the sidelines)


edit: I also believe that the OP is using MMF as failure. He couldn't do another rep.

 

[Brick]

Motherfucker you people love to complicate shit. Lift heavy, lift lots, eat, get big. If not big enough and want to be a 120kg mass monster get on cycle.

 

[Bazza20]

My opinion is even if it may or may not make a difference why not do a few less working sets to failure just in case you do over train and you will also have an understanding of over training.

I really do believe 3 working sets to failure is a bit much and can be reduced, i would love to see what others think the appropriate to failure sets per exercise is, before the risk of burning out happens down the track.

If all working sets were not to failure and only the last set was then the need for high ATP levels and the risk of cortisol and overtraining diminshes way down to nearly nothing.

You or the OP are not going to overtrain. Quit worrying about it. You are making it way too complicated.

If you want to build muscle hit the weights hard, continue to do so for a few years.

Like brick said if you goal is to be massive 120kg + then get on the gear.

 

[Goosey]

That depends if you believe going to failure is necessary or that you have to go to failure to consider it a work set.

Bazza, I just replied to the op I'm not interested in a debate as to determine ones belief.

He wanted to, I beleive work each set of his marathon workout/s to MMF, to which i also believe is humanly impossible.

Overtraining is very real if you look at the difference between long distance running versus sprint.

 

[Vandal]

Vandal, I completely understand where you're coming from with trying to ensure maximum ATP levels, and limit the possible detriment from an increase in cortisol levels - but does this possible benefit (from removing a possible detriment) out-weigh the loss of 'muscle-building-ness' from performing that extra set?

I doubt the OP is performing his exercises with anything approaching the intensity that DY uses in his 1/2 set per exercise workouts; I doubt there are many of us who can work out with such precision, efficiency, and intensity.

On the other hand, if you believe the OP is working out with that kind of intensity, how could he possibly work out his arms to full fatigue with maximum intensity more than just the once a week? If they were worked sufficiently (to total destruction on delts day) he would be struggling to get full benefit come chest day two or three days later.

Many studies exist showing the detriment to overall test levels from workouts in excess of one hour - but can you show me some of these studies that employ high intensity weight training with approximately two minute rest intervals between each set, in a subject chasing not increased strength, but hypertrophy?

Like has been said many times before, in this thread and many others. Each body sitting in front of all of these keyboards is different. Therefore each of them must be treated differently (regardless of how minute those differences are). I for one think that the OP should utilize between 60-90 seconds for resting intervals if he is chasing hypertrophy (his thread title is 'My Off-Season Mass Routine).

(sorry guys, this thread looked too fun to just sit on the sidelines)


edit: I also believe that the OP is using MMF as failure. He couldn't do another rep.

The ATP level was based on the idea if he wants each set to be at maximum failure then having the strongest energy system restored to at least 90% which is aprox 2 mins is probably the only way he is going to lift the same weight to failure a second time around, since his chest would be exhausted.

I believe his chest is going to be completely annihilated with 3 failure sets so why not swap some of those failure sets for some triceps or even cut the sets down without adding the triceps.

I still stand that 3 failure sets pushing to max is to much no matter of skill level.

 

[polishlifter]

I see your points.

But maybe ill do chest tommorrow as planed and report back and then we decide waht to do? I wouldnt like to overtrain, but also want to do enough work to grow, especially since I left beginner gains phase some time ago

 

[bradsky]

overtraining is overrated IMO, I'm starting to think it's made up.. maybe it's under-eating or under-resting..

I have trained Vandal style mindset for about a year (1 or 2 failure sets), I think it's great for strength.

I have started training high volume, lots of sets, short rest times, minimal weight, going for volume fatigue over physical failure. my measurements have been going up faster than ever.

I think strength is linked to size, but hypertrophy is better.

over-thinking is more detrimental to gains than overtraining .

heaps of people train for 2-3 hours, and they are fine.

good thread.

I don't have any studies to back my theories up, just what I reckon

 

[Brick]

overtraining is overrated IMO, I'm starting to think it's made up.. maybe it's under-eating or under-resting..

I have trained Vandal style mindset for about a year (1 or 2 failure sets), I think it's great for strength.

I have started training high volume, lots of sets, short rest times, minimal weight, going for volume fatigue over physical failure. my measurements have been going up faster than ever.

I think strength is linked to size, but hypertrophy is better.

over-thinking is more detrimental to gains than overtraining .

heaps of people train for 2-3 hours, and they are fine.

good thread.

I don't have any studies to back my theories up, just what I reckon

Agreed it's a load of shit eat and sleep enough and you will not overtrain.

 

[Bazza20]

Overtraining is very real if you look at the difference between long distance running versus sprint.

Can you explain what you mean by this.

 

[Vandal]

Can you explain what you mean by this.

Lets just leave debate done and dusted now. We got people saying you can overtrain and people saying you can't. The only person who will know is Polish when he tries it himself. We are all just assuming, at least he has options now if he wants to change things up or something is not working.

I think that's all that matters

 

[Darkoz]

Can you explain what you mean by this.

Well look at the physical differences between the two

 

[Bazza20]

Lets just leave debate done and dusted now. We got people saying you can overtrain and people saying you can't. The only person who will know is Polish when he tries it himself. We are all just assuming, at least he has options now if he wants to change things up or something is not working.

I think that's all that matters

Give it a rest mate. It's a forum, we discuss things, that's what it's for. I'm pretty sure its not up to you to decide when something is done and dusted. Im interested in what andy/silverback/what ever his name is today means by this.

 

[Bazza20]

Well look at the physical differences between the two

I obviously get that but what's that to do with overtraining.

 

[Brick]

Have started an overtraining thread gents. Let the debate rage.