training supplements

[Gauche]

The reason why I brought up your weight was not because I was having a shot at you. It indicates to me your knowledge of nutrition and supplments needs a major overhaul. Until your eating right what's the point of taking supplments. So please post your current diet for me to have a look at.

Carhart my main point is to buy Australian and support Australia. Testing etc will not change that. America by far has the best creatine you can get on the market if you buy it pure and not in some commercialized pre workout supp. Nz and aus own the protein market along with France i learnt last night.

Do ON use the same suppleir? Do ON market their protein in a money making kind of way pro
Print necessity instead of supplment? Do they add to their protein mixes? Do you know for sure who the supplier is?

I take any doubt out of my purchases and your struggling to understand my logic. Infact I struggle to understand yours when you say to an overweight person let me know how the trifecta stack goes... Clearly ebaz is not in need of supps and promoting his trifecta stack instead of lean chicken and veggies is not what he needs.

I grow tired of arguing with you two. I know I'm right and when I see Dave, Shrek, Fadi and Noobs support my comments and add their supplments that they use which all look spot on I know I'm on the right path.

You both however still have some ego to drop and some learning to do and I wish you the best of luck on that path but it seems I can't help you.

Carhart please post your supplments you take? And ebagz your diet please?

 

[ebagz]

The reason why I brought up your weight was not because I was having a shot at you. It indicates to me your knowledge of nutrition and supplments needs a major overhaul. Until your eating right what's the point of taking supplments. So please post your current diet for me to have a look at.

Carhart my main point is to buy Australian and support Australia. Testing etc will not change that. America by far has the best creatine you can get on the market if you buy it pure and not in some commercialized pre workout supp. Nz and aus own the protein market along with France i learnt last night.

Do ON use the same suppleir? Do ON market their protein in a money making kind of way pro
Print necessity instead of supplment? Do they add to their protein mixes? Do you know for sure who the supplier is?

I take any doubt out of my purchases and your struggling to understand my logic. Infact I struggle to understand yours when you say to an overweight person let me know how the trifecta stack goes... Clearly ebaz is not in need of supps and promoting his trifecta stack instead of lean chicken and veggies is not what he needs.

I grow tired of arguing with you two. I know I'm right and when I see Dave, Shrek, Fadi and Noobs support my comments and add their supplments that they use which all look spot on I know I'm on the right path.

You both however still have some ego to drop and some learning to do and I wish you the best of luck on that path but it seems I can't help you.

Carhart please post your supplments you take? And ebagz your diet please?

have a look at my log buddy its all in there.. you obviously dont get it.. No one is in need of supplements. No one. I know that.. do you??? Its not my knowledge thats the problem.. I know whats good and whats bad.. If you read my log you will know why i've been eating the way I do.. It was intentional, I was going through a hard time you don't know what its like watching your daughter get sicker by the day and not knowing if your going to ever get the call that will save her life, to be away from family and friends for coming up on 8 months, to be in and out of hospital, to watch your daughter be poked and prodded almost every day. So if you want to judge my knowledge by how much I weigh go ahead but ive been through hell and food was my only comfort. I have given my diet a major overhaul since now everything is looking up I am happier, I no longer have to worry so much about losing my daughter, and the weight is coming off. Also I beginning to wonder if you read my posts at all.. I've said i'm not going to use trifecta stack until I get down to a decent weight which will be next year. You have an ego to drop and maybe if you actually read what people write you wouldnt keep bringing things up that people have already addressed.

 

[Christian]

Gauche, I don't have the net connected at my new house yet so on iphail ..

I don't need a study to tell me a hks turbo is better then a china generic one.

We just know..

I wouldn't waste any more of your precious time. Let people buy inferior products for more money. I gave up trying to help people that don't want to be helped long ago...

 

[ebagz]

Gauche, I don't have the net connected at my new house yet so on iphail ..

I don't need a study to tell me a hks turbo is better then a china generic one.

We just know..

I wouldn't waste any more of your precious time. Let people buy inferior products for more money. I gave up trying to help people that don't want to be helped long ago...

The issue is the quality.. not price. I definitely pay less for bcaas creatine aminos etc and if I was allowed to import whey I would be paying less too. Maybe the quality is questionable, but the prices are cheaper no question. and I am happy with the quality of my CORE supplements. Your happy to pay a premium for what you know is good quality, Im happy to pay less and am happy with the quality I receive, That makes me no better or worse than you. I have my way and you guys have your whey. I do respect your choices and the reasons behind them.

 

[Iron Alliance]

A fewthings I've noted throughout this debacle:

-People seem to be comparing different things. Comparing Whey and Jack3d or BCAA's doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Different products for different purposes.

-Australian, New Zealand and America all use different processing plants for their Whey respectively, thus different qualities. New Zealand is currently one of, if not the best Protein supplier in the world which is where some of the Australian companies source their Whey. Australia isn't far behind in quality due to the quality of our cattle alone.

Now just for arguments sake, let's compare ACTUAL products of the same type.

Jack3d: Arginine Alpha-Ketoglutarate, Creatine Monohydrate, Beta Alanine, Caffeine, 1,3-Dimethylamylamine (Geranium [Stem]), Schizandrol.

We have a bit of AAKG, Creatine, Beta Alanine and Stimulants in two forms. This comes as 250g for how ever much you are paying for it. Does it give you a breakdown of how much of what is in it, or a proprietary blend?

-vs-

BN's "PreWorkout":Citrulline Malate, AAKG, Beta Alanine, Creatine Tri Malate, Flavouring, Caffeine, Geranium, Sucralose. (For this I've used the stimulant version, it comes without it also.)

It comes in at 97% Amino Acids, with 3% Flavouring and Sweetening, no room for fillers. At 250g it costs you $25 or $69 for 1kg. That's pretty good chop I think.

Now, onto Protein.

Let's use ON Whey in this example, as it's been brought up a few times.

ON Whey: Protein Blend(Whey Protein Isolate, Whey Protein Concentrate, Whey Peptides), Cocoa(Processed With Alkali), Natural And Artificial Flavors, Lecithin, Creamer(Sunflower Oil, Maltodextrin, Modified Food Starch, Di-Potassium Phosphate, Tri-Calcium Phosphate, Tocopherols), Salt, Acesulfame Potassium, Aminogen®, Sucralose


Mainly WPC, cheaper ingredients (alkali cocoa as opposed to natty cacao) a bunch of natural and artificial flavourings and a heap of unnessary ingredients to make it smoother/creamier in general more palatable. Comes in at $80 USD from BB.Com for 4.5kg worth. Not a bad price really, but a fair bit of undesirable ingredients.

-vs-

BN Chocolate WPC: Ultrafiltered WPC, Cocoa, Sucralose.


Breakdown of ingredients being between 1-4% flavouring meaning that you're getting between 96-99% Protein depending on what flavour you get. You could also get plain unflavoured WPC for cheaper, and add flavouring as you please possibly lowering the price. For 5kg this comes in at $109 AUD flavoured, or $92 AUD unflavoured. A little more expensive for a purer and greater quantity product.


Scivation Xtend: L-Leucine, L-Glutamine, L-Valine, L-Isoleucine, Natural And Artificial Flavors, Citric Acid, Citrulline Malate, Acesulfame Potassium, Sucralose, Pyridoxine HCL, Yellow #5, And Green #3.


We get only BCAA's, not EAA's. Citrulline Malate, Vit B6 and flavourings and some tasty artificial colours. Good thing with this though is it's all listed out not a proprietary blend. Good stuff. Pricing comes in at $50 for 1kg. Pretty darn good price considering the product.

-vs-

Bioflex Recovery X: Glutamine,Leucine, Isoleucine, Valine, Phenylalanine, Threonine, Tryptophan, Histidine, Methionine, Lysine, Tyrosine, Arginine, Cysteine, Flavouring, Sucralose.


We have a pure product again, with 97% Amino's and 3% flavouring + sweeteners. It's also all essential amino acids, not just BCAA's. More to it. Pricing with discounts used comes in at $79~ with free shipping anywhere in Aus.


I've sourced all American prices from BB.Com for a fair comparison. I've also sourced the Aus prices from the same company, Bulk Nutrients/Bioflex. With regards to shipping for BN, with the Protein and Preworkout mix + maybe one more item the shipping again, would be free. Not to mention the service is 2nd to none.


Overseas shipping probably costs you a fair bit of your total price + you may or may not get what you've ordered due to customs. That's my quick write up on price comparisons and service in general.


In saying all that, don't over complicate this crap and just eat your damn food and drink your milk if you want to grow, eat a bit less and and keep your veggies up if you want to lose weight. Simple.

 

[carhartt]

Carhart my main point is to buy Australian and support Australia. Testing etc will not change that. America by far has the best creatine you can get on the market if you buy it pure and not in some commercialized pre workout supp. Nz and aus own the protein market along with France i learnt last night.

Do ON use the same suppleir? Do ON market their protein in a money making kind of way pro
Print necessity instead of supplment? Do they add to their protein mixes? Do you know for sure who the supplier is?

I take any doubt out of my purchases and your struggling to understand my logic. Infact I struggle to understand yours when you say to an overweight person let me know how the trifecta stack goes... Clearly ebaz is not in need of supps and promoting his trifecta stack instead of lean chicken and veggies is not what he needs.

Carhart please post your supplments you take? And ebagz your diet please?

If you had actually bothered to read my post and bothered to respond to my questions, it would have made this more of a discussion, rather than you going on a rant (I mean this in the nicest way possible).

I agree with supporting Australian goods, no doubt about that, my question AGAIN, why is Aus protein superior than American, if we had 2 COA's which looked exactly the same? But I don't expect you to answer it, given I've only asked about 4 times now. Lets leave it.

You say America has the best Creatine on the market? Whats this based on? One of the more popular and well known is Creapure from Germany, most of the well known and respected companies in the US will source their creatine from Germany, and a little lessor known Pfanstiehl from the US.

Again with ON, I used that as an example, clearly you didn't read my post and forgot to answer my other questions.

Like I said, NO ONE is in need of supps, your above post indicates that I stated otherwise...

Supplements I take, my supps are not in question, however here goes for current supps.

1) WPI - Either ON or BN, depends.
2) Creatine Mono or Creatine Nitrate - again depends.
3) Multi's
4) Flaxseed - don't like Fishoil.

About to start taking 600mg of NAC daily for general health.

 

[Shrek]

How about you all agree to disagree, yes people disagree sometimes, so be it.

I'm keen to know how the Trifecta stack works for you. be sure to post up your results and good luck.

 

[ebagz]

Good post Iron Allegiance. I agree with you on alot, you cant compare apples with oranges. Also you've mentioned a few products that are available in Australia that look good and are well priced.
BN Preworkout IS Jack3d possibly better due to the proprietry blend on Jack3d, and is also a fair bit cheaper if you buy the 1kg.. I will be buying that in future.
Whey is cheaper in the US but at the end of the day it doesnt matter one bit because you can't import it yourself. I will be buying BN Chocolate WPC and if its good i'll keep buying it (unless I find a cheaper source).
If Bioflex Recovery X was a bit cheaper I'd definitely give it a go as it looks a great product, but with the dollar being strong, where i shop it's 46.99 for xtend, and 36.99 when on sale so I will be sticking with Xtend and also ordering my creatine + amino's overseas. Thanks for showing some great alternative products available here in Aus at decent prices.

 

[Gauche]

+1 noobs

Trifecta away!

 

[Jim_Junkie]

Paradise Herbs, ORAC Energy Green
12000 ORAC per serve
Has probiotics but not to the level that I want for gut health.

12000!!! that's ******* HUGE!!

If that's true I might get it

 

[Iron Alliance]

Also a little curious about the Trifecta stack. Only after Fadi's write up on Natadrol. Saying that he's super in tune with his body and know's when any change seems to happen. For us mortal laymen, it might not be so noticeable.

That's what I think alot of people are missing, really "knowing" when something takes place in their body and why it's happened because of what. That's why pre-workout's sell so well, most being stimulant laden, you can literally "feel" it working. You can't feel Steak, Potatoes and Milk working, but I sure as shit know they do. I also know that if I don't take fishoil for a week, my joints will feel like they've dried out completely. If I don't take my digestive enzymes, I things won't run as smoothly as they should.

Make sure what you're paying your hard earned on is actually working for you.

 

[Gauche]

This is not directed at you iron alliance I agree with most of what you have said in your comments on Thai thread.

Fadi didn't intend that article to encourage trifecta stacks in fact he withdrew his comment after one comment on it that made him rethink what he had said due to the way it could be interpreted by "new people". He then put it back up after being asked nicely by a few people. In all serious though especially if money is an issue.. Who needs it?

I take Fadi's word for law because he always has the science behind it and is a very smart man who genuinely cares about everyones health and that's the same with noob's. If he says that stuff works I believe him but at what cost? They say you need light pct after it so wouldn't you be damaging your hormones? I'm happy to continue my use of steroids as I have nothing to loose but why are people with good T messing with their T? Why do people with good T want to fork out for the possibility not the promise of s little extra T... Doesn't make sense to me. You don't see any of PCT lifters talking abouttheir trifecta stack they got in the mail...

Eat, sleep and lift... Listen and learn... Be on your way to greatness and don't let excuses hold you back!

 

[ebagz]

Well in Fadis post he said he put on 4kg with natadrol without wanting or trying to. I think normal people would notice that along with the 20kg increase in strength in one week.. sounds pretty unreal to me but those are typical of the logs I have been reading for both the natadrol stack and the trifecta stack, which got me interested hence why ive made the purchase. Apparently the trifecta stack is stronger more hormonal version and the natadrol is marketed as an alternative for natural athletes. I won't be trying it out for some time as I need to get my body back in shape, and i'll wait till my strength/gains plateau. I may even try the natadrol stack before using the trifecta but anyway that'll be down the track and ill be logging it.
I just find it funny that reading what Fadi wrote alot of you guys were saying natadrol was a waste of money and didnt work but had never tried it and probably never looked into it any more than reading what the manufacturer wrote. Obviously Fadi would have done alot of research into it before deciding to try it, and found it worked. So now that it has his endorsement no one questioned that it worked and alot wanted to try it. Now I may be half fadi age and not even in the ballpark in terms of expereince and knowledge.. but I do research products before I decide to try them, especially if there quite expensive, and I don't have the reputation of the fountain of knowledge which I don't expect to have, but I do have a brain and I do use it. I just find it funny that I get bashed about buying jackd and the trifecta stack which most of you doing the bashing have never tried nor reasearched. And if Fadi said jacked worked for him too im sure you would say wow it must be okay then. And I know alot of you guys are interested in seeing how the stack goes, wheter or not thats got to do with the fact fadi tried natadrol I don't know. I'd appreciate a fair go at least. Maybe I brought it upon myself, but i'm not just some dumb kid who believes the hype from manufacturers and is suckered in to buying things.. P.S just in case you start bashing me again - no you do not need supplements especially products like the trifecta stack, you can eat train and sleep your way to great gains without the use of any supplements.

 

[Iron Alliance]

This is not directed at you iron alliance I agree with most of what you have said in your comments on Thai thread.

No worries Gauche. I was more commenting on the fact that Fadi being "in-tune" with his own body and knowing what effects him to what extent and how is an invaluable skill to have, especially if you're want to fork out for things like this.

I'm not particularly familiar with the "Trifecta" stack, but I assume it must have Natadrol in it, hence my comments.

I completely agree with you that it's not wise for a young buck to go out and use any form of hormonal supplement that requires a PCT, be them mild or otherwise. I also agree with Fadi's move to take down the bost in fear of people worshiping newbies jumping on the bandwagon and buying a years supply of Natadrol just because Fadi said he had good results with it. All newbies need to do, and what I tend to say in every supplement thread I post in, is to EAT FOOD, train hard and sleep. That's it. Anything they do training wise is going to produce results at that point, even if they're not eating properly. If they are those results will be infinitely better and it's a heck of a lot cheaper than some super stack.

Oh and for the record, "I" was interested in the stack/Natadrol because last I was tested, late August my T was 9. Re-tested, it was 11. Thus within "normal" so no help for me.

 

[ebagz]

No worries Gauche. I was more commenting on the fact that Fadi being "in-tune" with his own body and knowing what effects him to what extent and how is an invaluable skill to have, especially if you're want to fork out for things like this.

I'm not particularly familiar with the "Trifecta" stack, but I assume it must have Natadrol in it, hence my comments.

I completely agree with you that it's not wise for a young buck to go out and use any form of hormonal supplement that requires a PCT, be them mild or otherwise. I also agree with Fadi's move to take down the bost in fear of people worshiping newbies jumping on the bandwagon and buying a years supply of Natadrol just because Fadi said he had good results with it. All newbies need to do, and what I tend to say in every supplement thread I post in, is to EAT FOOD, train hard and sleep. That's it. Anything they do training wise is going to produce results at that point, even if they're not eating properly. If they are those results will be infinitely better and it's a heck of a lot cheaper than some super stack.

Oh and for the record, "I" was interested in the stack/Natadrol because last I was tested, late August my T was 9. Re-tested, it was 11. Thus within "normal" so no help for me.

I agree with what your saying, which is why im saving the stack for a rainy day sometime down the track, im happy with the gains im making eating training and sleeping but also using basic supps + a preworkout. I'm just a newbie myself and have only been training consistently this year, im happy with my progress besides obviously fat gained from a poor diet and over eating, the only good thing from that being I still managed to put on a bit of muscle due to my consistent protein intake and calorie excess. Anyway i'll be honest and say that sometimes I do get urges to try a few things (after doing a bit of research and readin logs and reviews etc) to make faster gains get stronger quicker etc, does anyone at all feel me on this one? But until I got at least a good year of good clean diet, training and rest under my belt.. and my gains plateau I will not consider using the stack. I've always worked hard in the gym and trained hard and smart but diet has been my weakness especially this year when life gave me a good kick to the nuts. I do appreciate all the advice and i'm sorry if people don't like what I say, at the end of the day i'm sharing my opinion and this may change over time as I get more experience under my belt, but please know that im not stupid and I do research things.

 

[Iron Alliance]

That's fine ebagz. I was like that when I first started also, not because I thought the products I was buying where going to instantly turn me into a mass monster or get me ripped to shreds in "only 3 weeks!" but because I was just curious to see what they do. I was the same way with dietary strategies. High Carb, Low Carb, No Carb, Paleo, Mod Pro, High Pro, you name it, I've probaby done it.

The thing is I never gave them a chance to work, so for the first two years I spun my wheels. I was also fairly obsessed with getting "shredded" when what I really needed was more muscle. Then I eventually got a decent reality check through pictures taken, that I'd not made a whole lot of progress, physique wise. Strength had gone up pretty well, but not nearly as good as it could of been. What I needed was to eat proper food, stop screwing around with supplements that I didn't need and just train, eat and sleep. That's it.

In saying that I never messed with hormonal supplements. Just your pixie dust with added caffeine and your "Ultra Anabolic 30000% Swoleness" Proteins.

 

[Oli]

See the inflation in our dollar now? Just blame our old labor governments for making the inflation worse and blame our unions for arguing ridiculous work conditions.

I lolled a bit.

 

[Christian]

Bro learn paragraphs. I can't read this shot on a phone does my head in..

 

[Fadi]

Well in Fadis post he said he put on 4kg with natadrol without wanting or trying to. I think normal people would notice that along with the 20kg increase in strength in one week.. sounds pretty unreal to me but those are typical of the logs I have been reading for both the natadrol stack and the trifecta stack, which got me interested hence why ive made the purchase. Apparently the trifecta stack is stronger more hormonal version and the natadrol is marketed as an alternative for natural athletes. I won't be trying it out for some time as I need to get my body back in shape, and i'll wait till my strength/gains plateau. I may even try the natadrol stack before using the trifecta but anyway that'll be down the track and ill be logging it.
I just find it funny that reading what Fadi wrote alot of you guys were saying natadrol was a waste of money and didnt work but had never tried it and probably never looked into it any more than reading what the manufacturer wrote. Obviously Fadi would have done alot of research into it before deciding to try it, and found it worked. So now that it has his endorsement no one questioned that it worked and alot wanted to try it. Now I may be half fadi age and not even in the ballpark in terms of expereince and knowledge.. but I do research products before I decide to try them, especially if there quite expensive, and I don't have the reputation of the fountain of knowledge which I don't expect to have, but I do have a brain and I do use it. I just find it funny that I get bashed about buying jackd and the trifecta stack which most of you doing the bashing have never tried nor reasearched. And if Fadi said jacked worked for him too im sure you would say wow it must be okay then. And I know alot of you guys are interested in seeing how the stack goes, wheter or not thats got to do with the fact fadi tried natadrol I don't know. I'd appreciate a fair go at least. Maybe I brought it upon myself, but i'm not just some dumb kid who believes the hype from manufacturers and is suckered in to buying things.. P.S just in case you start bashing me again - no you do not need supplements especially products like the trifecta stack, you can eat train and sleep your way to great gains without the use of any supplements.

Ebagz, I hear you loud and crystal clear Sir and I fully agree with what you are saying. I respect the fact that you conduct your own research on a product before committing yourself to it. That is the only wise and rational move in my opinion.

And yes, as the gentlemen of this forum have said to you, I was hesitant in naming a product which I found worked for me because I knew the level of respect I have around this forum may drive some to try it out irrespective whether they needed to or not.

As far as Jack3d is concerned, I have no doubt that this product rocks, in fact I know it does. But I also know why it rocks and I also know the consequences that would arise from that "rocking" as time goes by. I'm not a fan of caffeine at all, not because it doesn't work, on the contrary, I'm not a fan of it because it does work. However it's in the way it works that I find long term detriment to our being, more mentally first followed by physically.

I'm sure you know caffeine's effect on the adrenaline glands and on the release of that fight or flight stress hormone adrenaline. People are forever complaining of having no energy, of being exhausted etc. These same people are the ones indulging in the caffeinated drinks.

I see a form of abuse going on here. Abuse to our adrenal glands that is paralleled with the abuse we give to our pancreas on a daily basis when we feed our body high GI foods and demands a ton of insulin to be released.

Natadrol is not something that I would encourage anyone to take on a regular basis. It's there for a nudge if one needs an increase in muscle mass or strength gain that's all.


Fadi.

 

[carhartt]

Ebagz, I hear you loud and crystal clear Sir and I fully agree with what you are saying. I respect the fact that you conduct your own research on a product before committing yourself to it. That is the only wise and rational move in my opinion.

And yes, as the gentlemen of this forum have said to you, I was hesitant in naming a product which I found worked for me because I knew the level of respect I have around this forum may drive some to try it out irrespective whether they needed to or not.

As far as Jack3d is concerned, I have no doubt that this product rocks, in fact I know it does. But I also know why it rocks and I also know the consequences that would arise from that "rocking" as time goes by. I'm not a fan of caffeine at all, not because it doesn't work, on the contrary, I'm not a fan of it because it does work. However it's in the way it works that I find long term detriment to our being, more mentally first followed by physically.

I'm sure you know caffeine's effect on the adrenaline glands and on the release of that fight or flight stress hormone adrenaline. People are forever complaining of having no energy, of being exhausted etc. These same people are the ones indulging in the caffeinated drinks.

I see a form of abuse going on here. Abuse to our adrenal glands that is paralleled with the abuse we give to our pancreas on a daily basis when we feed our body high GI foods and demands a ton of insulin to be released.

Natadrol is not something that I would encourage anyone to take on a regular basis. It's there for a nudge if one needs an increase in muscle mass or strength gain that's all.


Fadi.

Fadi,

Out of pure interest, what made you choose Natadrol over ther other natty booosters?