Speed or Dynamic effort training

[Goosey]

Marcos; I do like AJ, I do like, Dave draper, Hepburn and I also like many others and have respect.

You are probably one of the most blinkered intolerant people I have experienced in a while LOL, but as a trainer you need an angle and you need to make a buck I understand, it's difficult.

And I still think the methods of training have gone backward.
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[Goosey]

So are passive aggressive replies.

Well we are both being entertained then, splendid.
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[Ben]

Just out of interest Andy, what are your best lifts?

 

[haz]

the good thing about speed work its that you can work the movements without creating muscle soreness or neural fatigue and therefor train the lift twice a week.

im not 100% sure on doing speed work after doing your working sets on normal bench. seems like you wouldn't get as much out of it.

 

[Oli]

For a defence of my position watch this:

YouTube - Tendo Unit with Speed Work and Force Production

Using a tendo unit Talmant recorded the use of speed training (50-70%) for himself and his team over a period of years and found no increase in speed when performing lifts above 80%.

It's really hard to say that speed training works when this tendo unit gives exact and tangible evidence of the opposite.

 

[Goosey]

Just out of interest Andy, what are your best lifts?

I think my best was squat: 120-5x5 followed by 80x20
dead-lift: 200 or 205 5x5...20 chin's I did 10 with 25 my body weight was 'round 89 at the time. All that was around the same time I was 45 and I had more time to myself, from 1994 onward I was working full time and a single parent of two girls.
But I still managed to find time to go to gym, it was extremly difficult.
But I don't regret a single day.
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[Oli]

How come everytime I bring in the tendo unit everyone goes silent? for those of us who cant be bothered to watch a 2 minute video let me give you the gist of it:

"When we got faster using lighter weights (60 and 70%), we then went to the heavier weights--80% and above--and we looked at force production. Our force production didn't change. So for us the argument that getting faster with a lighter weight translates into your ability to move heavier weights faster did NOT hold water...

"And that is my two cents on why I don't think speed work holds water when training the powerlifts...

"...And this was back when I was training equipped--both single ply and multi-ply. The numbers are more staggering when you look at a guy competing raw...

"...You may think you're moving the weight faster than you are and you think that translates to more force, but this little box (tendo) will tell you the true story."


- Eric Talmant

 

[dave]

Oliver the problem with the video is that there is no data produced it would be great to be able to look through all this data they said they collected. His explanation is not bad though, from it I would gather that his power has increased but when doing a max this increase in power meant diddly squat. Is your argument that trying to increase momentum to beat a sticking point through increased bar speed is less effective than getting stronger at the angle of the sticking point?

Personally for athletes (team sports, athletics etc) I think power is very important. Most of the work is at bodyweight and increasing both your speed and strength will increase your ability to express your power. For the average trainee who lift to be stronger than normal and for health benefits then rapid lifts (especially with high ground reaction forces or rapid joint movements) will degrade their joints much faster (ask Fadi about his joints from Olympic Lifting) and therefore they will not be really ifting for health in the end. The same goes for playing sport though, those high ground reaction forces are going to ruin your joints more than doing some other activity that stresses the joints less. Silverback has a point as for these guys your overall performance is not that important but long term health is.
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[Oli]

I don't really look at speed work as 'beating a sticking point' but more the theory that training in a lower percentage range helps you 'train motor unit recruitment' which increases your max.

I think for a powerlifter looking to increase their squat speed training is moot. Sports which require certain conditions (eg quick reactions) might be different. I dont know, I'm not interested in them.

Basic periodisation, practice of movements, balancing development and avoiding overtraining by limiting volume OR intensity OR both seems to be what works for powerlifters, hence the success of stuff like PPP, 5x5, 5/3/1, 3x3 and sheiko. Westside's principles often fly in the face of this stuff.

My biggest problem with this theories (I totally dont agree with it, but lets pretend I do) is how its used by most intermediate trainees. Let me give you a scenario:
1. Johnny has a 100kg bench. His training routine consists of 3x5 bench press, 3x10 overhead press and 5 sets of pull ups (pretty good). but his bench is his 'weak lift'.

2. Johnny gets online and reads about the coolness of westside. He decides to add in DE work, but of course he thinks he'll melt if he stops doing any one of the above exercises, so he throws in 8x3 bench press with 60% of his 1RM (speed training) into the mesh.

3. Johnny overtrains and adds **** all to his bench press. Noticing one day he stalled a bit at the top of his bench he reads on westside that he has 'lockout issues' and thus the cycle repeats.


This bit isnt Markos' fault or anyone elses, but I'll guarantee you 95% of the time this is exactly how things go down.

 

[Goosey]

Box jumping will make you great at, well box jumping, hell, why not place a Swiss ball on the ground so they can jump oFf that holding a pole!?
If that doesn't do the job for them they could at least join the circus
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[Sticky]

I don't really look at speed work as 'beating a sticking point' but more the theory that training in a lower percentage range helps you 'train motor unit recruitment' which increases your max.

I think for a powerlifter looking to increase their squat speed training is moot. Sports which require certain conditions (eg quick reactions) might be different. I dont know, I'm not interested in them.

Basic periodisation, practice of movements, balancing development and avoiding overtraining by limiting volume OR intensity OR both seems to be what works for powerlifters, hence the success of stuff like PPP, 5x5, 5/3/1, 3x3 and sheiko. Westside's principles often fly in the face of this stuff.

My biggest problem with this theories (I totally dont agree with it, but lets pretend I do) is how its used by most intermediate trainees. Let me give you a scenario:
1. Johnny has a 100kg bench. His training routine consists of 3x5 bench press, 3x10 overhead press and 5 sets of pull ups (pretty good). but his bench is his 'weak lift'.

2. Johnny gets online and reads about the coolness of westside. He decides to add in DE work, but of course he thinks he'll melt if he stops doing any one of the above exercises, so he throws in 8x3 bench press with 60% of his 1RM (speed training) into the mesh.

3. Johnny overtrains and adds **** all to his bench press. Noticing one day he stalled a bit at the top of his bench he reads on westside that he has 'lockout issues' and thus the cycle repeats.


This bit isnt Markos' fault or anyone elses, but I'll guarantee you 95% of the time this is exactly how things go down.

I think I'm Johnny
ppp + speed bench
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[Christian]

I don't really look at speed work as 'beating a sticking point' but more the theory that training in a lower percentage range helps you 'train motor unit recruitment' which increases your max.

I think for a powerlifter looking to increase their squat speed training is moot. Sports which require certain conditions (eg quick reactions) might be different. I dont know, I'm not interested in them.

Basic periodisation, practice of movements, balancing development and avoiding overtraining by limiting volume OR intensity OR both seems to be what works for powerlifters, hence the success of stuff like PPP, 5x5, 5/3/1, 3x3 and sheiko. Westside's principles often fly in the face of this stuff.

My biggest problem with this theories (I totally dont agree with it, but lets pretend I do) is how its used by most intermediate trainees. Let me give you a scenario:
1. Johnny has a 100kg bench. His training routine consists of 3x5 bench press, 3x10 overhead press and 5 sets of pull ups (pretty good). but his bench is his 'weak lift'.

2. Johnny gets online and reads about the coolness of westside. He decides to add in DE work, but of course he thinks he'll melt if he stops doing any one of the above exercises, so he throws in 8x3 bench press with 60% of his 1RM (speed training) into the mesh.

3. Johnny overtrains and adds **** all to his bench press. Noticing one day he stalled a bit at the top of his bench he reads on westside that he has 'lockout issues' and thus the cycle repeats.


This bit isnt Markos' fault or anyone elses, but I'll guarantee you 95% of the time this is exactly how things go down.

At least johnny isnt doing curls in the squat rack

 

[Oli]

At least johnny isnt doing curls in the squat rack

Our real issue is when johnny inflates his bench when counting the bar, the ****ing liar.

 

[Christian]

Our real issue is when johnny inflates his bench when counting the bar, the ****ing liar.

Of course he doesnt realise 20kg only counts when the metal is circular with a hole in it..

spastic ****.

 

[Oli]

lets not derail this shit further, its a pretty good discussion.

wanna bitch about anime in your log?

 

[dave]

Well you could argue yes more motor recruitment may happen (it's only a theory though) but expression of force by the muscles is still less than a max lift so the muscles are not being trained to do what you want them to do.

My theory is better motor control plus muscular adaptation will increase strength. Learn to do a movement keep practising it and perfecting it whilst adding progressive weight overload at high intensities will lead to strength gain for a given movement. I am more interested in athletics and team sports where time to express strength is low. Therefore continually maximizing strength is going to lead to diminshed gains eventually. Learning the ability to express that strength faster (may just be bodyweight x velocity for a sprinter) will lead to a better result. I am still not convinced on power training per se. It could be that developing strength and seperately developing speed (literally sprint or jump with no extra weight) is more optimal than lifting moderate to light weights fast.

I have not researched this integards to powerlifting so I can not comment fully on it with any certainty.
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[Oli]

By that theory simply training with an empty bar could improve your lifts (something I agree with) but assuming you squat, bench and deadlift once a week. Also, your theory on expression of strength sounds a lot like GPP which is a whole different kettle of fish (and one that I like).

I think we have different focuses here.

 

[PTC]

Firstly, I post about personal experience and lifters in my gym that I train. Period. I've got no videos from other experts explaining things. I'll give you numbers.

Now Andy, I have trained old school with great results, a 200kg+ squat and a 165kg bench. I have now trained lifters that smash that in a fraction of the time it took me.

I dont have an angle. People pay me for the best imformation. Trust me, that is not doing what you suggest. That is fine for the recreational lifter, like yourself, but I doubt you would ever give a dime to train you. You rubbish other methods without trying them, that is narrow minded Andy. You have never attempted to test your limits, so because I do, and I use methods you havent tried, you say I'm narrow minded. Thats a silly comment from someone as smart as you.

Now Oli, FFS stop using OTHER peoples data to win an argument against someone who uses there OWN data.

I stated at the start, these are my experiences. You can produce 1,000,000 articles about why something doesnt work, but until you try it yourself and find out, its pointless.

Read, use, assess, comment.

Andy and Oli, you appear the only 2 in this thread who are closed minded.

Absolute strength has not progressed much in my opinion. Jim Williams benched 700lbs raw in the 70's, were not much stronger now, as I have stated in MANY newsletters.

What we are accomplishing is those numbers MUCH sooner with training methods that target a lifters weakness. Back in the day, Jim benched 5 days a week, consistently increasing the weight. He was a freak, as are all world record holders.

The average lifter may have an incredibly weak lockout. Should he not do an exercise as well bench to fix that. If he continues to bench only what he can lockout, his pecs may be getting less work. Same goes with a guy with a strong lockout. If we only give him weights he can drive off his chest, his lockout never works hard.

What if we could target his weakness....lockout/speed and make it stronger WHILE were still benching. What would happen then?

Quite clearly, he would get stronger quicker. Would he get stronger than he ever could before? I believe no. As I said, absolute strength hasnt increased dramatically for decades.

Max wants to beat all my lifts before he's 21. He'll smash them. Why. I benched, squatted, deadlifted. Why did it take me till my mid 30's to hit my peak, we started at the same age.

Could it be that his father is OPEN MINDED about different methods of getting stronger. Nah, it must be something else.

Anyway, good discussion fellas, keep it nice and it will be great.

 

[dave]

GPP and expression of strength could probably be intertwined.

 

[PTC]

A way I use to explain the benefits of bar speed to lifters in my gym is.

Imagine if I asked you to walk through a ply wood door, you would have no hope.

Imagine hitting that door at full speed, you would simply blast through it.

That plywood door is your sticking point, the faster the bar is moving when you reach it, the better chance you have of getting through it.

Every lifter has a sticking point on every lift, a section of the lift where your leverage cant overcome the weight, its why we cant lift a million pounds.

One way to lift more weight is to create bar speed that allows us to overcome that point. Another is rack work from 10cm beneath that point.