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Sticky
Active member
I feel bench is by FAR my weakest lift. I'll get a 160 squat soon so that's ok, but I'm MILES away from a 125kg bench.
I always get the bar off my chest, but fail in the 1st half of the lift.
I've just started speed bench with just a barbell (50kg, 45% 1rm) as I haven got bands or chains as yet.
Am I going in the right direction?
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I always get the bar off my chest, but fail in the 1st half of the lift.
I've just started speed bench with just a barbell (50kg, 45% 1rm) as I haven got bands or chains as yet.
Am I going in the right direction?
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Rugby88
I have Ep1c Calendar kunce
How are you fitting it into your training? and what sort of set/rep are u doing?
Goosey
.
What?
Typical.
Most don't come here to discuss, more often than not they just need confirmation for thier own methods.
This subject comes up often enough that I wonder if anyone really pays attention? There is no one definitive way to train for anything, a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g-. No studies supporting a "Best Way" have been accepted. This includes core, functional, sport specific or anyone of the new buzzwords that are in vogue or about to be. The only constant is using weight training. Weight training will get you better. Doing it in a safe way is good but those that compete in strength events are competing many times in an unsafe enviroment. They make the choice, as I did. There are no special ways for a Body builder to train as opposed to any athlete. They choose the way they train also. For any "ONE" way that is supposed to be the best you can come up with other ways that someone is using successfuly. Bodybuilders, Strength Athletes, Athletes, regular people all can use similiar ways or not. Slow training is not new. 20 years or more ago Al Christensen told me that Steve Reeves, while on a comeback used very slow and deliberate movements in his training. NO ONE argued about movement speed back then. We didn't care, we just went to the gym. The one's that did the most stressing back then were like the one's that do it today. They don't have much to show for all the worry. Today with the internet this stressing can be carried to the extreme.
For me, I control the weight. That's about all the thought I put into it. Honestly, I haven't seen much of anything "New" for many years. But I have seen a number of individuals try to take credit for things we did over 30 years ago. Many of these individuals couldn't have been doing anything but playing in their sandbox back then. Weight training, stick to it, don't make it complicated. Train hard, train safe, be consistant.
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Rugby88
I have Ep1c Calendar kunce
I have to agree that there are 100's of different methods of training out there and 1000's of people will have there own methods of the method of training.
When it comes down to it though a mix of speed/plyo and heavy/max effort work can't be beaten for strength/athletes.
When it comes down to it though a mix of speed/plyo and heavy/max effort work can't be beaten for strength/athletes.
Goosey
.
I have to 100% respectfully disagree with your statement.
You develop explosive power by becoming stronger (not using momentum to lift the weight). Rep speed should be one that is safe enough for you to control the weight and have the muscles do the work through the entire range of motion. By bouncing or dropping a weight gravity and momentum have done the work - not you (the muscles). The amount of weight you use has no correlation as to how strong you can become if the exercise isn't being done effectively - it's just numbers (weight and reps) that you are measuring and not what is actually happening to the body. Reduce your weight by 25% - used a control speed of movement where there are pauses in teh beginning and end of the movement and you feel the difference. No, you will not use as much weight but the target muscles will do all the work and that's what anyone who is searching for strength wants to accomplish. That's why the question "how much can ya bench?" means nothing.
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You develop explosive power by becoming stronger (not using momentum to lift the weight). Rep speed should be one that is safe enough for you to control the weight and have the muscles do the work through the entire range of motion. By bouncing or dropping a weight gravity and momentum have done the work - not you (the muscles). The amount of weight you use has no correlation as to how strong you can become if the exercise isn't being done effectively - it's just numbers (weight and reps) that you are measuring and not what is actually happening to the body. Reduce your weight by 25% - used a control speed of movement where there are pauses in teh beginning and end of the movement and you feel the difference. No, you will not use as much weight but the target muscles will do all the work and that's what anyone who is searching for strength wants to accomplish. That's why the question "how much can ya bench?" means nothing.
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Rugby88
I have Ep1c Calendar kunce
Fair enough mate - I totally understand that....but we are talking about dynamic effort/speed work for building explosiveness, the more explosive you become really the stronger you should become.
But Andy, your simply sprouting Arthur Jones and everyone else that believes in time under tension. They are not interested in lifting heavy weights to set records, simply lifting weights to illicit a muscle response.
If I ever need a really slow athlete, I will instruct him to lift really slow.
So far, thank God, they all want to faster and stronger.
In competition, as you pointed out, we dont time who controls a certain weight for longest, we measure who lifts the most.
The fastest strongest guy always lifts the most, if technique is equal.
the entire sport of weightlifting is based on speed. They could care less about muscular involvement, time under tension etc. Lift the weight high enough to get under it, the faster you can move, the less distance you need to move the weight.
So as Joel and I train the majority of our clients to lift more weight and move much faster, using methods that are avoided in commercial gyms by recreational lifters allow us to get lifters bigger/stronger/faster much quicker than by using antiquated bodybuilder type training.
You guys must be sick to death of me using analogies from PTC, so I wont mention performance/time spent lifting using these principles.
this is the strength section Andy, not the bodybuilding section. I seldom post there, because as you pointed out, nothings changed for 100 years.
But when it comes to strength, its now possible to get much stronger much quicker. My son has beaten my deadlift and powerclean record within 2 years of touching weights, he will have surpassed anything I ever lifted before he's 20. I was 20kg heavier and 14 years older.
While I love the past, I dont ignore the present, especially with sports.
If I ever need a really slow athlete, I will instruct him to lift really slow.
So far, thank God, they all want to faster and stronger.
In competition, as you pointed out, we dont time who controls a certain weight for longest, we measure who lifts the most.
The fastest strongest guy always lifts the most, if technique is equal.
the entire sport of weightlifting is based on speed. They could care less about muscular involvement, time under tension etc. Lift the weight high enough to get under it, the faster you can move, the less distance you need to move the weight.
So as Joel and I train the majority of our clients to lift more weight and move much faster, using methods that are avoided in commercial gyms by recreational lifters allow us to get lifters bigger/stronger/faster much quicker than by using antiquated bodybuilder type training.
You guys must be sick to death of me using analogies from PTC, so I wont mention performance/time spent lifting using these principles.
this is the strength section Andy, not the bodybuilding section. I seldom post there, because as you pointed out, nothings changed for 100 years.
But when it comes to strength, its now possible to get much stronger much quicker. My son has beaten my deadlift and powerclean record within 2 years of touching weights, he will have surpassed anything I ever lifted before he's 20. I was 20kg heavier and 14 years older.
While I love the past, I dont ignore the present, especially with sports.
Interesting theory Silverback, what about the increase in rate of force development to provide more power. Strength training does not I increase speed of movement. Since power is a by product of speed an strength would you not then suggest speed work to increase explosive ability. Or do you belive in training them separately and to not mix the two?
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This is a part from a larger article posted on efs a day or two ago (EFS Classic: The Education of a Powerlifter)
"To explain the dynamic effort method, Tom asked Jonathan to jump onto a small box. Jonathan did this with no problem. Next, Tom asked that he repeat the jump again but this time he had to jump in slow motion. It didn’t take Jonathan long to learn this was impossible to do.
“That’s right,” Tom said. “You gotta have speed to generate force. The good news is this is a component that can be trained. This is what the dynamic effort method is for.”
They moved on to what Tom called the max effort method. He set up a 50-inch box and asked Jonathan to jump onto it. Jonathan looked confused.
“I need to be faster to get up there,” Jonathan said.
“No, for you to get way up there you’ll have to get stronger. We can make you very fast but as long as your strength stays the same you’ll only improve your current strength level. Let me explain it this way: you may be strong enough to jump to 21 but now are only fast enough for 18 inches. Speed will help you get to 21 but to go higher your strength will have to increase. This is where the max effort method comes in. See, there’s a need for both speed and strength to be developed at the same time.”
"To explain the dynamic effort method, Tom asked Jonathan to jump onto a small box. Jonathan did this with no problem. Next, Tom asked that he repeat the jump again but this time he had to jump in slow motion. It didn’t take Jonathan long to learn this was impossible to do.
“That’s right,” Tom said. “You gotta have speed to generate force. The good news is this is a component that can be trained. This is what the dynamic effort method is for.”
They moved on to what Tom called the max effort method. He set up a 50-inch box and asked Jonathan to jump onto it. Jonathan looked confused.
“I need to be faster to get up there,” Jonathan said.
“No, for you to get way up there you’ll have to get stronger. We can make you very fast but as long as your strength stays the same you’ll only improve your current strength level. Let me explain it this way: you may be strong enough to jump to 21 but now are only fast enough for 18 inches. Speed will help you get to 21 but to go higher your strength will have to increase. This is where the max effort method comes in. See, there’s a need for both speed and strength to be developed at the same time.”
Goosey
.
Let me ask this:
If you are trainee without any specific training goals other then strength and fitness (which in and of itself is all you should be training for, IMO) as compared to bulking, power lifting, football, Highland Games, etc., should you sample/pick from a couple of different modalities? Should you do a basic power type routine based on the press, clean, and squat? Should you do some body weight stuff like chins and dips? What about some power body building using the bench, squat, dead lift, and row? the 3 x 3 workout for metabolic conditioning. You also could throw in the occasional odd object stuff like the Farmer's walk and its ilk.
Should those things be done seperately, in combination, or some other shape or form?
If you are trainee without any specific training goals other then strength and fitness (which in and of itself is all you should be training for, IMO) as compared to bulking, power lifting, football, Highland Games, etc., should you sample/pick from a couple of different modalities? Should you do a basic power type routine based on the press, clean, and squat? Should you do some body weight stuff like chins and dips? What about some power body building using the bench, squat, dead lift, and row? the 3 x 3 workout for metabolic conditioning. You also could throw in the occasional odd object stuff like the Farmer's walk and its ilk.
Should those things be done seperately, in combination, or some other shape or form?
Christian
Active Member, June10MOTM
I have done some speed work with a mate at my gym who happens to be a trianer there. He is an ex bodybuilder turned proper lifter...
I have seen him deadlift 300kg (belt, knee wraps).. I did speed owrk with him it was interesting. Slow decend explode up.. usually 6 x 1 off say 60% 1rm...
Something im interested in doing more of when I gain some solid strength and training heavy max's day in day out becomes too demanding on my cns.
Good read markos
I dont know what you are all carrying on about..
I have seen him deadlift 300kg (belt, knee wraps).. I did speed owrk with him it was interesting. Slow decend explode up.. usually 6 x 1 off say 60% 1rm...
Something im interested in doing more of when I gain some solid strength and training heavy max's day in day out becomes too demanding on my cns.
Good read markos
I dont know what you are all carrying on about..
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If you have no goals other than a vague idea of strength and fitness then you are not training, you are passing time in the gym.
Nobody in this thread has said that other training protocols or methods are less valid or don't deserve the time of day. You should be approaching things with an open mind and seeing what works for you.