Nootropics Log

[C_T]

i used alpha-gpc as a choline precursor, with noopept for support. just covering the bases so no burnout.

for me i only get things in tablet form now, because they taste so bad it'll sit on the shelf instead of being used, and capping stuff is the biggest pain...

 

[Davepuppies]

The stuff I got was already capped, being Endocrine Amplifier from Wicked supplements.

it has 800mg phosphatidylserine, and 600mg A-GPC per serve of 3 capsules.

The goal was only the PS, as I wanted to lower cortisol, but if the A-GPC also helps with cognition and supposedly GH facilitation I guess it can't hurt.

i am all very new to any of this kind of stuff.

 

[C_T]

ok well first, 80% of our daily hgh secretion happens in Slow Wave Sleep, stage 3 sleep. which is about 20% of the nights sleep, so for 8hrs sleep its comes down to about an hour and a half.

changing our hgh during wakefullness is nothing in comparison, so really, we should all be trying to make sure our sleep is as un-interrupted as possible. i cannot stress this enough. not only are we releasing hgh in SWS, we are counteracting other stressor hormones including cortisol.

so my intuition is telling me, maybe your not getting enough SWS if your getting an accumulation of cortisol. just thinking out loud.

don't know anything about phosphatidylserine... yet.
but if it were me, i'd concentrate on the 80% part, and not the 20% we do over the rest of the day.

The Role of Cortisol in Sleep | Natural Medicine Journal

the nitty gritty;

[h=3]Alternative Approach to Hypercortisol-Induced Sleep Problems[/h]An effective way to manage chronically elevated cortisol levels is to ensure that the adrenal glands are supported by proper nutrition. Vitamin B6, vitamin B5 (pantothenic acid), and vitamin C often become depleted with prolonged hyperactivity of adrenal gland activity and increased production of cortisol.21 These nutrients play a critical role in the optimal functioning of the adrenal gland and in the optimal manufacturing of adrenal hormones. Levels of these nutrients can be diminished during times of stress. For instance, urinary excretion of vitamin C is increased during stress, which is evidence of vitamin C “dumping.” Consequently, additional symptoms may develop with these nutritional deficiencies. Observations and a rich tradition of anecdotal writings and reports supporting this claim have shown that deficiencies in pantothenic acid results in fatigue, headaches, and insomnia. L-tyrosine and L-theanine support the adrenal glands by supporting NE production and are beneficial in combating fatigue and anxiety symptoms related to stress.22,23 In addition, the cortisol feedback mechanisms are dependent on adequate amounts of calcium, magnesium, potassium, manganese, and zinc.24 Therefore, supplementation of these nutrients along with other supporting agents, such as L-tyrosine and L-theanine, may help ameliorate some symptoms as well as assist in proper HPA axis functioning.

Ashwagandha (Withania somnifera), also known as Indian ginseng, has been shown to reduce corticosterone, a glucocorticoid hormone present in amphibians, reptiles, rodents, and birds that is structurally similar to cortisol.25,26 An array of clinical trials and laboratory research also support the use of ashwagandha in enhancing mood, reducing anxiety, and increasing energy.27-30

Magnolia (Magnolia officinalis), was studied in a randomized, parallel, placebo-controlled study in overweight premenopausal women and resulted in a decrease in transitory anxiety, although salivary cortisol levels were not significantly reduced.31Magnolia has been demonstrated to improve mood, increase relaxation, induce a restful sleep, and enhance stress reduction.32 In an unpublished study conducted at the Living Longer clinic, Cincinnati, Ohio, a proprietary blend of Magnolia officinalis and Phellodendron amurense was shown clinically to normalize the hormone levels associated with stress-induced obesity. It was demonstrated that this combination lowered cortisol levels by 37 percent and increased DHEA by 227 percent.

Phosphatidylserine (PS), also known as lecithin phosphatidylserine, is known to blunt the rise in cortisol and ACTH following strenuous training and significantly reduce both ACTH and cortisol levels after exposure to physical stress.33,24 Phosphatidylserine also has been shown to improve mood.35,36

Another approach to improving sleep is targeting GABA activity. Increasing GABA activity will decrease LC, PVN, and resultant HPA axis activity. One method to support GABA functioning is to decrease glutamate signaling. Glutamate and GABA activity oppose each other; therefore, decreasing glutamate activity will support healthy HPA axis activity. L-theanine is a glutamate receptor antagonist and has been shown to decrease brain NE levels secondarily to increasing GABA levels.37,38 Interestingly, N-acetylcysteine (NAC) is a known precursor for cysteine, necessary for the synthesis of glutathione,39,40 but also has been shown to decrease glutamate levels. NAC decreases glutamate by enhancing the activity of a cystine/glutamate antiporter. Glutamate is regulated by a cystine/glutamate antiporter that exchanges extraceullular cystine for intracellular glutamate.41 Ultimately, the actions of this antiporter serve to lessen synaptic glutamate levels. Furthermore, glutamate is involved in immune-cell signaling to increase dendritic cell maturation following the exposure to antigens. To address elevated glutamate at its source, evaluation of intestinal permeabilities, food sensitivities/allergies, and bacterial and/or viral infections need to be considered due their relationship to dendritic cell maturation via increase antigen presence.42

4-amino-3-phenylbutyric acid is a synthetic amino acid sold as a nutritional supplement that crosses the blood-brain barrier and is a GABA agonist.43 Like many other GABA agonists, 4-amino-3-phenylbutyric acid can promote sleep by stimulating sleep-promoting centers in the brain. It also supports healthy cortisol levels by inhibiting the LC release of NE into the PVN.

Rhodiola rosea is an adaptogenic herb that modulates cortisol.44 It reduces catecholamine release and prevents catecholamine depletion from the adrenal glands. In addition, research that was conducted in Russia indicates that it may stimulate opioid receptors,45which in turn can reduce NE excitability in the PVN and HPA axis activity.46

Many traditional botanicals (eg, American ginseng, ashwagandha, Asian ginseng, astragalus, cordyceps, reishi, eleutherococcus, holy basil, rhodiola, schisandra, maca, licorice and common nutritional supplements (eg, phosphatidylserine, L-theanine, 4-amino-3-phenylbutyric acid, NAC) have been utilized for their stabilizing effects on the HPA axis. Combination/multi-ingredient formulations are common in a whole-system approach to restoring HPA axis dysfunction, whether to increase or decrease cortisol levels.

 

[Davepuppies]

C_T I agree.

the reason for cortisol reduction through daily supplementation is my GPs view that melatonin can't be released properly in a high cortisol environment. My cortisol is in a reverse pattern, so reducing my daily cortisol should in theory allow the pineal gland to release the melatonin and make me sleepy, whereas I am typically wired of a night, and sleepy in the morning, in line with my cortisol profile.
I understand what you are saying in terms of restorative sleep, and cause and effect.

 

[rushjohn]

I've been taking Melatonin 3mg for almost 3 years now, and it's certainly helped using it with nootropics. I've had no issues getting to sleep.
That being said, I've never taken nootropics after 3pm. Modafinil I take at 7am.

It's clearly stated that with most nootropics the abuse potential is almost 0. Piracetam is considered one of the more base nootropics making it quite safe in large amounts.

Been following this thread for awhile now and adding people's experiences on to mine, I've finally got the courage to make a post about my sleep issues and focus during the day, hopefully ill be able to get help from people who are informed. Not sure if this is the right place to post all of this but it does relate to the brain behaviour at least.

Firstly, what I want to ask you puggy is that is melatonin safe to consume over a long period of time?

I sometimes have trouble sleeping because of the preworkout and find that melatonin really helps but I don't want to rely on it fearing bad effects or inability to fall asleep by myself naturally in the future, the perfect combo that knocks me out is about 2.5mg melatonin and 1 cap of nocturnabal by muscle science.

Ive tried naturally remedies such as drinking peppermint tea, chamomile etc. before bed and find they do he'p me relax abit but are a hit and miss. They also sometimes give me very vivid and weird dreams .

i also have other supplements like calming my musashi, subtheanine, tyrosine, nopept, non stim focus xt, vitamin c and primarectam

Secondly, I also find that I have a hard time maintaining focus during the day, normally I would take a fat burner In The morning and that'll keep me energised til workout time where ill take a preworkout at about 5, right now I've tried to reduce my stims to only pre workout and find that during the day I'm alot slower, not as sharp and procrastinate alot more. I've been doing this for 3 months, I'm sure that with proper use of nootropics and supplementation I would be able to function alot better


The funny thing is back when I was taking fat burner in the morning and pre workout, I wold have no trouble falling asleep at all and now that I've reduced my stim intake slowly, I've been having issues falling asleep, I also get up frequently almost everyday in the middle of the night to pee, I know I should reduce liquids before bed time and have tried my best to however my mouth remains like a desert if I don't drink, even when I take little sips li still get up to pee, the only way that I've ever gotten a full night rest is when I pee right before sleeping and not drinking liquids however I can't seem to repeat this behavior.

Finally, diet wise, I would say that I eat 85-90% from clean raw foods, so rarely anything processed, I would have most of my carbs during the day and post training then taper down to healthy fats and heaps of veggies after.

if anyone could advise me on ways to better my condition and the best times to take these supplements to improve my health and focus then it'll be much appreciated, thanks

 

[myst]

Hopefully the others can chime in on the supps, regarding your dietary goals are you gaining, maintaining or losing currently? I have no trouble smashing a pre workout, doing a massive gym session and sleeping an hour after I get home late at night, as I'm in a fairly large calorie deficit.

Try some heavy squats and deadlifts and see how well you sleep afterwards

 

[Jungnaut]

I think the key is not trying to 'knock yourself out' when going to sleep (even though that's nice once in a while with the right, ugh, medication), but to go to sleep in a mentally and physically relaxed state. So this means turning off TV and computers half an hour before, lights dim, write down everything that you need to do tomorrow or worries so you don't have to run through them later in bed, and basically make your environment as boring as possible so the brain's only option is to switch off and sleep (for me that means taking out a textbook I know nothing about, last night it was calculus and I was starting to nod off in 6 minutes).

If you're tummy is full, room is hot and you're sweating you're ass off replying to 10 threads at a time whilst flicking your eye over at the ipad playing P.O.V scene of 'Bit Tits at Gym Vol 15', with techno tunes blaring thru your headphones and suddenly go 'Oh shit its time to sleep', then good luck with that lol! Chance of success 1/10. (1 due to if able to come from P.O.V scene).

 

[Puggy]

Firstly, what I want to ask you puggy is that is melatonin safe to consume over a long period of time?

From what I understand it's a natural hormone, and it has no harmful long term effects. However, I'm unsure to whether it reduces your ability to produce melatonin naturally.

I sometimes have trouble sleeping because of the preworkout and find that melatonin really helps but I don't want to rely on it fearing bad effects or inability to fall asleep by myself naturally in the future, the perfect combo that knocks me out is about 2.5mg melatonin and 1 cap of nocturnabal by muscle science.

Ive tried naturally remedies such as drinking peppermint tea, chamomile etc. before bed and find they do he'p me relax abit but are a hit and miss. They also sometimes give me very vivid and weird dreams .

If these work for you then good, you possibly don't need to change it. As mentioned I know there are no harmful long term effects. Most sleeping supplements have the ability to give you weird and vivid dreams 'lucid'. I quite like it, as being in a dream state is very nice for me. As long as you're sleeping through the night, most men wake in the early hours of the morning to pee, I unsure about females. I know I often wake up, maybe once a week.

i also have other supplements like calming my musashi, subtheanine, tyrosine, nopept, non stim focus xt, vitamin c and primarectam

Secondly, I also find that I have a hard time maintaining focus during the day, normally I would take a fat burner In The morning and that'll keep me energised til workout time where ill take a preworkout at about 5, right now I've tried to reduce my stims to only pre workout and find that during the day I'm alot slower, not as sharp and procrastinate alot more. I've been doing this for 3 months, I'm sure that with proper use of nootropics and supplementation I would be able to function alot better

Sounds like you have a fair few supplements happening. These should certainly be working. I suggest KISS. Think of a stack of nootropics. Regular supplementation should help. The following dosages and dose times have been most effective for me.

Dosing - noopept - 20mg /ALCAR 1.5g /alpha gpc 300mg during the day
morning at 7-9am - afternoon 12-1pm.

See how this works for you.

Feel free to ask anymore questions, I'm sure we can help you further.

 

[Davepuppies]

I have been experimenting with a phosphatidylserine/A-GPC product over the last week or so.

one of the two has me very wired, racing heart, unsettled mind of a evening.

i have tried the full dose (3 capsules- 800mg PS, 600mg A-GPC) and 1/3 of dose, initially at 4pm, then 1pm, and also 8.30am, but I am still very wired of a night and takes me until well past midnight to be able settle down and sleep.

i am going to try PS on its own, as it could be the choline that has me stimulated and wired.... Thoughts?

my only goal was cortisol reduction, as I peak of a night, but the current supplement isn't working for me.

will be interesting to see what PS on its own does. I will be using 50% PS, so it will have less of the other phospholipids and should give me a true idea of how PS works in my body.

 

[C_T]

i would think thats the noopept pups

regarding long term melatonin use theres no evidence yet
and 3mg is about a hundred times more than the body releases so take this into account also
until very recently it remained a research drug in australia but now there is prescription melatonin

unlike in the states where its the only hormone given the ok for otc
i smell profits in this motivation

 

[Puggy]

i would think thats the noopept pups

regarding long term melatonin use theres no evidence yet
and 3mg is about a hundred times more than the body releases so take this into account also
until very recently it remained a research drug in australia but now there is prescription melatonin

unlike in the states where its the only hormone given the ok for otc
i smell profits in this motivation

I've been on prescription for quite sometime used to get it from a compound pharmacy. They would try to charge me $20 for 40 tablets.
I ended up getting some on Ebay from seller with 99.9% rating for the same result as the pharmacy - $20 for 300 tablets.

So having used both, I can safely say both work. One is more dollars.

 

[Jungnaut]

Is there any harm with long term nightly melatonin use? I take it 5 times a week for about a year now, along with ZMA because it's a fantastic combo.

 

[C_T]

Is there any harm with long term nightly melatonin use? I take it 5 times a week for about a year now, along with ZMA because it's a fantastic combo.

melatonin hasnt been used for many years so there is no long term data

what i was saying tho is any hormone thats a hundred times the dose good to take 5 nights a week

its supposed to be for jetlag and shift work disorder which is taking it 2 to 3 nights in a row to shift the bodyclock then stop using it

it is not a sleeping pill and should not be used in that fashion
well even sleeping pills shouldnt be used nightly
only when needed to kickstart a better sleep schedule

 

[Davepuppies]

i would think thats the noopept pups

regarding long term melatonin use theres no evidence yet
and 3mg is about a hundred times more than the body releases so take this into account also
until very recently it remained a research drug in australia but now there is prescription melatonin

unlike in the states where its the only hormone given the ok for otc
i smell profits in this motivation

is noopept A-GPC?

 

[C_T]

nah aplha-gpc is a choline precursor, you should have no actual effect from that. it just tops up reserves from which noopept will burn through.

its recommended when you take noopept to sup with choline support. it is in foods, but taking something like noopept you want to cover the bases.

some nootropic "blends" will have noopept + some type of choline support. aplha-gpc being one of the better ones.

 

[C_T]

I've been on prescription for quite sometime used to get it from a compound pharmacy. They would try to charge me $20 for 40 tablets.
I ended up getting some on Ebay from seller with 99.9% rating for the same result as the pharmacy - $20 for 300 tablets.

So having used both, I can safely say both work. One is more dollars.

yeah when you got it from a compounding pharmacy, it was still classified as Research Only. so compound pharmacy's made it up (they ordered it and put it in a pill at your expense).

maybe lastyear? it became prescription medicine only. you can order it from usa and its not restricted medication, but it is prescription so in reality, customs is well within their right to ask for an aussie script before delivery.

i personally don't agree with usa making it otc, its being abused as a sleeping pill when its not like that... melatonin is apart of over 200 function in the body, and people in australia with awesome sunlight exposure, i just don't think we need it... except certain circumstances like having real trouble with shiftwork or flying internationally.

guess a valid use would also include daylight savings shift of bodyclock to make it smoother.

studies have shown perception of sleep and tiredness is no better than placebo. which is why they made it otc in usa, to make money. just look online about melatonin and everyone is "so groggy, have the best dreams" on it. well, PLACEBO at its finest. sad but true im sorry (when you read 1000 stories "groggy, great sleep" then you expect it when you sleep, fact is i cannot remember the last time i woke up not groggy or remembering a dream... that is life)

 

[Stiffy]

@C_T have you been taking Research Only psycho active drugs?

 

[C_T]

@C_T have you been taking Research Only psycho active drugs?

not for a few years, no.

i just got home from working in a lab, and thought i'd help a few others that had limited knowledge is all.

that ok with you? or you wanna paint me with another brush?

 

[Stiffy]

not for a few years, no.

i just got home from working in a lab, and thought i'd help a few others that had limited knowledge is all.

that ok with you? or you wanna paint me with another brush?

Paint you with a brush? You stated something about taking Research Only drugs, I just wondered if they were psycho active.

You work in a lab, is that where you get these Research Only psycho active drugs?

 

[Puggy]

I've been on prescription melatonin for a few years. Possibly under the research only banner.
I've imported a fair few things under prescriptions here in Australia with no problems. However no doubt one day I may encounter a problem.

What would you recommend other than melatonin for sleep? - I've got mild insomnia, which is why I have it. Had it even before I started using stims.

Placebo, is probably true actually. I've encountered it before also. However sometimes, I forgot that I hadn't had my melatonin, and then after trying to get to sleep for a while realized I hadn't had it and came to the conclusion, this is why I couldn't sleep!

yeah when you got it from a compounding pharmacy, it was still classified as Research Only. so compound pharmacy's made it up (they ordered it and put it in a pill at your expense).

maybe lastyear? it became prescription medicine only. you can order it from usa and its not restricted medication, but it is prescription so in reality, customs is well within their right to ask for an aussie script before delivery.

i personally don't agree with usa making it otc, its being abused as a sleeping pill when its not like that... melatonin is apart of over 200 function in the body, and people in australia with awesome sunlight exposure, i just don't think we need it... except certain circumstances like having real trouble with shiftwork or flying internationally.

guess a valid use would also include daylight savings shift of bodyclock to make it smoother.

studies have shown perception of sleep and tiredness is no better than placebo. which is why they made it otc in usa, to make money. just look online about melatonin and everyone is "so groggy, have the best dreams" on it. well, PLACEBO at its finest. sad but true im sorry (when you read 1000 stories "groggy, great sleep" then you expect it when you sleep, fact is i cannot remember the last time i woke up not groggy or remembering a dream... that is life)