Misc Steroid Thread

[vonfram88]

Just out of interest, what are your guys best lifts? Who are offering advice/arguments/insults. Spartacus posted his. Rep maxes are fine if you don't test 1rms often.

Not competing but still a paid up member of PA and refusing to yield to the chemical shortcut path.

Three years into my comeback (aged 43) I achieved 175kg x 1 Bench, 10 x 140kg Bench, 5 x 220kg deadlift (which I hardly ever train), 220kg squat with old fashioned loose wraps, 200kg x 5 squat raw, 140kg x 17 squat raw, 140kg x 5 front squat atg, 120kg power clean, 100kg press behind neck.

I was much stronger in my late 20's but had been training since early to mid teens to get a 185kg competition bench, and in the gym regularly achieved 5 x 220kg squat and 7 plate deadlift (~290kg) plus 140kg press behind neck and 140kg "muscle clean".

My natural testosterone levels are very low now but I think sometimes the hormones only matter for peak performers.

I find it disheartening to see young lads leap into gear when all they need is time and patience. I believe most people can achieve almost as much in 10 years of natural training as someone who uses gear for 3-4 years and has never put in the foundation training. The main difference will be that the natural trainer will keep most of their gains whereas the flash in the pan trainers on gear will revert to mediocrity and probably see most of their gains wiped out when they stop.

 

[Fadi]

I believe most people can achieve almost as much in 10 years of natural training as someone who uses gear for 3-4 years and has never put in the foundation training.

I respect your point of view irrespective whether I agree or disagree with it. When you made this statement, were you referring to any sport in particular or all sport inclusively? Thank you.



Fadi.

 

[Rugby88]

No, it's not about this for me at all, and it is not about a path.

its about paying ones dues, building strength using just hard yakka.

going professional is about relying on your chosen sport as a full time occupation, you get to that point with raw talent.
my opinion is, that when you get to that point, use the drugs to achieve a higher level if you want, as it's all about the $ and the pressure is on.
thats just my opinion ands it is pie-eyed.

So you dont respect someone like Jay Cutler? You think he hasnt put in the hard yakka for his gains? Of course its about a path - weight training is all about going down different paths/different goals/different outlooks on training....

He has prob put in more effort than everyone combined on this forum - drugs or not....

 

[Goosey]

So you dont respect someone like Jay Cutler? You think he hasnt put in the hard yakka for his gains? Of course its about a path - weight training is all about going down different paths/different goals/different outlooks on training....

He has prob put in more effort than everyone combined on this forum - drugs or not....

Ffs, my comment is directed to kids jumping on to steroids before too early.

are you using steroids, or HGH?
are you using it now?

 

[Rugby88]

Ffs, my comment is directed to kids jumping on to steroids before too early.

are you using steroids, or HGH?
are you using it now?

misunderstood tiger

 

[Goosey]

misunderstood tiger

This happens a lot, comprehension skills are low here.

 

[vonfram88]

I respect your point of view irrespective whether I agree or disagree with it. When you made this statement, were you referring to any sport in particular or all sport inclusively? Thank you.



Fadi.

My dear colleague, I made my remarks in the context of strength (anaerobic) sports.

Feel free to disagree, I find your input delightful and always with the politeness of a Persian Scholar.

 

[Shrek]

This happens a lot, comprehension skills are low here.

Don't be Kunty.

 

[Goosey]

Don't be Kunty.

Ok

 

[Grunta]

Yeah, us kunce below the national average intellect index may feel intimidated by these insensitive comments.

 

[Brick]

Fuck, more preaching in here then the service I attended at st Francis xavier on Sunday.

 

[0ni]

Not competing but still a paid up member of PA and refusing to yield to the chemical shortcut path.

Three years into my comeback (aged 43) I achieved 175kg x 1 Bench, 10 x 140kg Bench, 5 x 220kg deadlift (which I hardly ever train), 220kg squat with old fashioned loose wraps, 200kg x 5 squat raw, 140kg x 17 squat raw, 140kg x 5 front squat atg, 120kg power clean, 100kg press behind neck.

I was much stronger in my late 20's but had been training since early to mid teens to get a 185kg competition bench, and in the gym regularly achieved 5 x 220kg squat and 7 plate deadlift (~290kg) plus 140kg press behind neck and 140kg "muscle clean".

My natural testosterone levels are very low now but I think sometimes the hormones only matter for peak performers.

I find it disheartening to see young lads leap into gear when all they need is time and patience. I believe most people can achieve almost as much in 10 years of natural training as someone who uses gear for 3-4 years and has never put in the foundation training. The main difference will be that the natural trainer will keep most of their gains whereas the flash in the pan trainers on gear will revert to mediocrity and probably see most of their gains wiped out when they stop.

Testosterone levels in the physiological ranges make very little difference
Same with insulin

 

[Fadi]

My dear colleague, I made my remarks in the context of strength (anaerobic) sports.

Feel free to disagree, I find your input delightful and always with the politeness of a Persian Scholar.

Thank you Sir, you're too kind.

If I do disagree with your point of view, I do so based on my own life experiences and nothing more. And furthermore, I would love nothing more than to be persuaded over to your point of view if you could perhaps show me the way. Here is why I hold a different point of view from yours:

I will only be discussing what I personally know about and nothing else. I will be discussing the sport of Olympic weightlifting, applying both of our point of views to it.

I know for a fact that back in the 80s, Australian weightlifters were using performance enhancing drugs. I also know that about two years after I left the AIS, two weightlifting colleagues of mine went public (on TV) denouncing our coaches for giving us steroids. Needless to say, this information which the Australian tax payer could not stomach, saw the demise of Olympic weightlifting practiced at the AIS.

The above was a preface to our discussion here, and my way of shining the spotlight on the comment that you've made.

The view you hold to says that given time, a natural athlete (strength athlete of course), training properly for 10 years, and having a solid foundation behind him, should in fact be able to reach the heights or level of his steroid taking counterparts. Am I on the right track here Sir? Now what I am saying in my rebuttal of your held point of view is this: not even with the usage of steroids are we here in a western country like Australia, are able to reach a level that has been reached by (mainly) the eastern bloc countries. So what hope has the natural strength athlete has in doing so, if the steroid taking ones haven't been able to do so (since I was introduced to the sport all those years ago in 1980)?

Furthermore, and when it comes to the sport of Olympic weightlifting, simply partaking in steroids will not achieve world standard results. Why? Because according to our laws, it's illegal to be found in possession of performance enhancing drugs, and from the doctor to the state to the country are all afraid in sharing their knowledge of how to use these substances to achieve such world class results.

So can you see why I hold to such a view now Sir! I would love nothing more than to see a level playing field worldwide, but that is not going to happen. So to me, a national champion is equivalent to a world champion simply based on the fact that, the level playing field in one and the same country is but one, generally speaking of course.

This is why I hold to my views, and would love for you to show me an example of a natural strength athlete who has made it to the level of a drug taking one (in this country), irrespective of the solid training years he's got under his belt.

I am not for steroids and I am not for natural. I am for a level playing field.

PS: The numbers you have posted are simply beyond impressive to me. I sincerely mean that, and you truly inspire me to continue with my own training (as I approach 50). It's really great to have people like you on this awesome forum.



Fadi.

 

[lkt004]

This is why I don't have respect for drug users, gone are the days when you just did honest hard work.

If you want to total 1000kg, raw, at any given bodyweight, you are going to have to use drugs, no doubt about it.

If you want to weigh a lean 150kg, you're going to need to be on gear.

I'm shocked that you have no respect for PED users, fair enough if they are cheating, but untested feds are fair ground.

 

[Fadi]

Testosterone levels in the physiological ranges make very little difference

Very little difference to whom, or to whom is this comparison made? I mean are you restricting this physiological ranges to the one and the same individual, or are you making a comparison between one individual and another?



Fadi.

 

[0ni]

The same individual
Heavy, high volume training will crush your testosterone:cortisol ratio- but as Glenn Pendlay showed PBs were set in the long term despite this
Vonfram as he said has low testosterone levels but still puts up 175kg in the bench press, that's more than I will likely ever do irrespective of drug use

There is more to it than simply hormone levels, not to downplay their role, they work- that's why people use them. But I'm sure you understand what I'm getting at

 

[Fadi]

...fair enough if they are cheating,...

In my opinion, no drug user is cheating. The only one cheating is the natural athlete...he's cheating himself, for knowing the state of the playing field and deciding to enter into it. I am not saying go and be a steroid user just so you can meet on equal grounds no, ...just that the facts are not hidden from the competing athletes who decide to partake in our sports today. The general public? Well, they know what they've been informed in the media and that's all they need to know.

If you disagree with me, you may charge me with being a pragmatist! Thank you.



Fadi.

 

[vonfram88]

The view you hold to says that given time, a natural athlete (strength athlete of course), training properly for 10 years, and having a solid foundation behind him, should in fact be able to reach the heights or level of his steroid taking counterparts. Am I on the right track here Sir? Now what I am saying in my rebuttal of your held point of view is this: not even with the usage of steroids are we here in a western country like Australia, are able to reach a level that has been reached by (mainly) the eastern bloc countries. So what hope has the natural strength athlete has in doing so, if the steroid taking ones haven't been able to do so (since I was introduced to the sport all those years ago in 1980)?



Fadi.

Dear Fadi

Please forgive my selective quoting of your last post and I hope what have quoted above does not misrepresent your original position.

I concur with the above views. At elite levels of international competition, the natural strength athlete really has no hope against the institutionalised doping of his competitors.

However back down here on earth with the mortals, I still feel that time spent under a barbell is the key determinant and if the lifter's ambitions are not that of an elite international competitor, there is still hope without PED.

There is however a paradox in my original view that "10 years" of training would deliver an equivalent outcome compared with a novice who embarked on a strength training journey using PED and without the foundation training; after 10 years the lifter may well succumb to the mortal condition and the aging body is no longer capable of sustaining the same heavy workload.

 

[Goosey]

Outstanding writing gentlemen, sheer profundity.

dont really understand what you're talking about, but beautiful choice of words all the same.

 

[Goosey]

If you want to total 1000kg, raw, at any given bodyweight, you are going to have to use drugs, no doubt about it.

If you want to weigh a lean 150kg, you're going to need to be on gear.

I'm shocked that you have no respect for PED users, fair enough if they are cheating, but untested feds are fair ground.

Nothing shocks me anymore.

except maybe, seeing two men kiss in public.