How much do drugs help?

[PTC]

I get asked this on a weekly basis, in my gym, pm's and emails. I dont believe anybody can answer accurately, everyone will respond differently.

First, I want to clear something up. There is NO drug free competition, only drug tested, and non tested. The Olympics, Tour De France, AFL, MLB etc are definitely not drug free, but they are drug tested. There are even guys currently plaing in the AFL with 2 strikes. Ben Cousins has NEVER tested positive to a drug test, yet admits he took drugs during his entire career.

So, there is no such thing as drug free, just tested and non tested.

For our sport, I can only compare the 2 federations, CAPO and PA. CAPO has no testing, PA does. CAPO has some advantages, multi ply suits, 24hr weigh in, Monolifts etc, so in no way is this comparison 100% accurate, but it will give a good indication.

I will simply compare Total Records in the Open Men's class, every weight class. Equipped lifters only.

CLASS..............CAPO.............PA
52kg...............167.5kg..........na
56kg...............450kg............465kg
60kg...............552kg............570kg
67.5kg............657.5kg..........605kg
75kg...............740kg............690kg
82.5kg............757.5kg..........760kg
90kg...............892.5kg.........785kg
100kg.............960kg............870kg
110kg.............965kg............850kg
125kg.............910kg............910kg
125kg+.............na...............937.5kg
140kg.............900kg..............na
140kg +..........895kg..............na

I'm not sure if this answers the question, but it will give some an idea. Like I said, its not possible to answer accurately.

Here is food for thought. In the 100kg class, CAPO and PA have arguably there best lifter, CAPO has Adam Coe and PA has Richard Hozjan.

Adam has no advantage with equipment, his total was set in 1994, Richards in 2010. Adam has the record for all 3 lifts in his class, Richard just the squat. Both these guys are "blow your mind lifters", but there is a 90kg advantage to Adam. Adam had no 24hr weigh in either, just like Richard doesnt.

Please discuss

Thank You for your time.

 

[macmad]

Comes down to do you want to compete against Juicers? I don't which is why i choose PA.
I just ignore CAPO results and just assume that every lifter is on the gear, and that the judging is as lax as I see at their WA comps

 

[Spritcha]

Here is food for thought. In the 100kg class, CAPO and PA have arguably there best lifter, CAPO has Adam Coe and PA has Richard Hozjan.

Adam has no advantage with equipment, his total was set in 1994, Richards in 2010. Adam has the record for all 3 lifts in his class, Richard just the squat. Both these guys are "blow your mind lifters", but there is a 90kg advantage to Adam. Adam had no 24hr weigh in either, just like Richard doesnt.

Not sure there is any answer here. How much do drugs and a 24hr weigh in help? I have no idea- but comparing these two lifters doesn't really show much at all except how the CAPO best ever 100 shapes up against PAs best ever.

It strikes me as amazing that any PA lifter would lift more than a CAPO lifter in the same class given the advantages they have- but then again that may say more about the depth (or lack of) within the sport. How is it that no one in CAPO has ever hit 1000kg total?

 

[Rugby88]

When used correctly of course drugs will help - that is a simple fact.

I think non-tested feds are much better because you know that everyone has a free range to use whatever they want and its a known thing...if competing in a tested fed its always a guessing game.

 

[strong enough?]

This is a topic I'm quite interested in. My 2c.

The illicit drugs policy implemented by the AFL is done by private laboratories using predominantly hair sample testing. It is not conducted by ASADA under the WADA protocol, because under WADA most illicit drugs are only banned in-competition. So the fact Ben Cousins was not caught does not really say much about the efficacy of ASADA testing at all.

ASADA also tests for illicit drugs on gameday - if you got caught with traces of illicit drugs on gameday or the 24 hour window beforehand, it's a default 2 year ban, although with cannibis this is usually reduced to 3-6 months. Dozens of athletes at professional and amateur level have been caught for methamphetamine and cannabis, most of them in rugby, often at amateur level.

I doubt Cousins would have used on or before gameday - it would have been after, and the substances he was using would have cleared from his system before the next game. AFL players would be unlikely to use cannabis during the season because it stays in your system for a long time and is likely to show up on game day. But pretty much all of the strikes have been for cannabis use - from tests taken during the off-season where cannabis use is not banned.

ASADA testing can be technically conducted at games of Australian Football at any level, and people are often caught. For example, only this week a young WA draftee hopeful competing in the WAFL was caught with nandrolone in his system. He faces a 2 year ban from all sporting competition. He was taking because he was finding it hard to bulk up. IMO probably should have tried squats and milk before turning to the juice.

While comparing records between tested and non-tested powerlifting at first look seems like an appealling exercise, it's not actually that helpful. It's pretty much as PRITCHA said.

Some more of my observations...

Firstly, there are more than 2 federations in Australia. There is also Drug-Free Powerlifting which boasts similar regular competitor numbers as CAPO albeit more in regional areas. There are a number of other feds. DFP have a WADA compliant drug policy, but AFAIK they don't receive funding to do the tests and I have no data about how many tests they actually do - without funding they are very expensive.

Also, the field of competitors in CAPO has traditionally been significantly lower than PA. Before raw was introduced, I would be surprised if CAPO had more than 10% market share of powerlifters competing in Australia. In general, bigger pool of competitors will mean higher records. If anything, this makes the CAPO numbers more impressive (leaving out of the analysis the difference in rules and equipment).

If there's any correlation between PA v CAPO records in drugs, it is probably higher than it first appears taking into account the pool of competitors. But then how do you account for the equipment and rules? It's too difficult because the rules of the various federation and allowance of equipement have diverged significantly over time. You'd have to say though that the older the record the more valid the comparison between tested and non-tested.

One way of looking at the effect of drugs is to look at the Australian IPF records pre-1991 when PA expunged existing records and see how many of them are yet to be broken. There's quite a few of them and that's despite the advances in equipment. Consider then that some of the ones holding those all-time records did actually fail anti-doping tests or are well-known to have been taking performance enhancing drugs.

In terms of the scientific literature, there's no definite answer, but the potential improvement anabolic steroids give in strength sports is somewhere between 10-30%. There was a lot of debate on this if you read the Drugs in Sport Inquiry records.

It's also hard to quantify improvement. The same athlete who used steroids vs the one who didn't might over a 10 year period achieve results at the peak of their careers within 5% of each other, but it's possible the using athlete got to that point much faster and was able to stay at that level longer.

Steroids is also just one class of drugs, albeit an effective one. The use of stimulants alone could make as much as 10% improvement on comp day - this is important to note with the number of athletes using pre-workout supps, many of which contain banned stimulants. The WADA code also proscribes dieuretics, which can aid athletes drop weight with less effect on performance.

In terms of the level of testing in PA, it's far ahead of many other Australian tested sports. So it would be unfair to imply that drugs are commonly used in PA, particularly in the context of a sport which offers a federation where you can compete without testing.

Knowing some of the record holders personally, I can guarantee for those individuals that "tested" does mean "drug free".

For those that don't know about testing, here's some info to digest.

ASADA did 73 tests for PA last year - 20 in competition, and 53 out of competition. This is out of a total of about 4,200 government funded tests for all sport in Australia or around 2% of all funded tests, which is pretty high when you consider how niche the sport is. ASADA will hopefully do even more this year as more funding as been allocated by the government.

By and large those that compete in PA choose to do so precisely because it's tested. If they want to use, they usually have choices to compete elsewhere, although there are parts of Australia where only PA has a real presence (eg Adelaide, Tasmania). The only 2 positive results last year were for stimulants and they were cases of inadvertent doping due to taking off-the-shelf pre-workout drinks.

If you get an Australian record in PA, you are tested by default. Pretty much in all cases, winners of a particular division are also tested. Anyone who has scored an Elite total is placed on the ASADA registered testing pool, which means they have to report a particular time and place when they can be randomly tested any day of the year. Other lifters can also be randomly tested out of competition at their nominated place of training - this happens about 5-10 times a year where I train.

* prize for first person to post tldr;

 

[PTC]

I wont assume PA lifters take drugs if you dont assume CAPO lifters take drugs.

You guys know I took 16 lifters to the Vics to compete in the only raw comp around. We did so not so we could take drugs, but because we wanted to lift raw.

Marion Jones never tested positive, at a much, much higher level than a PA lifter, yet she admitted to taking drugs.

Passing a drug test does not mean you are drug free. Lets keep this on topic, how much do drugs help.

 

[macmad]

When used correctly of course drugs will help - that is a simple fact.

I think non-tested feds are much better because you know that everyone has a free range to use whatever they want and its a known thing...if competing in a tested fed its always a guessing game.

I don't agree with the guessing game at all. I can't think of a single regular PA competitor who I suspect of using. If I knew somebody was using in PA, I'd be the first to call ASADA to get them tested and banned.
Maybe at a world level there's a bit of guessing with certain countries, but for all the people who assume beating a test is easy, they still catch a lot of top lifters like Balaev.

 

[PTC]

Marion Jones, Marion Jones, Marion Jones, Marion Jones, Marion Jones

 

[macmad]

Markos, just ask Adam, he's very open about it. But I doubt he wants his answer spread all over the internet

 

[macmad]

Marion Jones, Marion Jones, Marion Jones, Marion Jones, Marion Jones

what's that prove? It's not like she got away with it. Her name is mud now,
and none of here previous results get any respect now because she is a confessed drug cheat.

You can claim all you want that all your lifters are drug free, but it's like Hulk Hogans " say your prayers and eat your vitamins" claim.
If you don't compete in a real sport with drug testing people will assume the worst

 

[Skalatharx]

I know of a good local sprinter that recently tested positive for performance enhancers, the funny thing is though he had been using for 5 years, and passed many tests before that. I guess he got careless. There are substances out there that are impossible to be tested for rite now, and even more with extremely short half lives that are in and out of the body in under 4 days.

 

[strong enough?]

When used correctly of course drugs will help - that is a simple fact.

I think non-tested feds are much better because you know that everyone has a free range to use whatever they want and its a known thing...if competing in a tested fed its always a guessing game.

I can understand that.

But does having tested and non-testing feds actually mean the tested fed is more fair?

On the one hand, by having a non-tested federation, those want to be able to use performance enhancing drugs have a place to compete and have no reason to enter the tested competition (*not to imply that everyone competing in the non-tested fed wants to use drugs*).

This is why powerlifting in Australia is different from athletics and the Marion Jones example. There is no non-tested international athletics competition, or Australian competition for that matter. IMO having the choice of non-tested feds available means that the likelihood of people deliberately cheating in PA is much lower than other sports in Australia.

It also helps that powerlifting here is an amateur sport. It's different from powerlifting in Russia, for example, where the IPF affiliated athletes have lucrative financial incentives given out by the government to perform at international level - so even though there are non-tested feds, the preference is to try and achieve within IPF as the money is better and the glory higher. That being said, if you want to officially represent Australia in the sport, you can only do so through PA.

On the other hand, is it fair that athletes who knowingly cheat in a tested fed, get caught, banned and can then compete in non-tested feds at a national and international level? Powerlifting is pretty much the only sport in Australia where you can do this. You could argue having a non-tested fed indirectly actually encourages cheating in the tested fed.

It's a complicated debate.

Back on topic, do drugs assist performance? YES, otherwise they would not be banned.
To what degree? Impossible to answer, as PTC pointed out in the OP.
How useful is comparing records? Too hard to say.

 

[PTC]

what's that prove? It's not like she got away with it. Her name is mud now,
and none of here previous results get any respect now because she is a confessed drug cheat.

You can claim all you want that all your lifters are drug free, but it's like Hulk Hogans " say your prayers and eat your vitamins" claim.
If you don't compete in a real sport with drug testing people will assume the worst.

So I'll simply assume that you use steroids, because I know you train in a gym that has steroid users in it, guilt by association? Youre with them 3-4 times a week, 200 times a year, we mingle with MAYBE drug user twice a year.

Paul, Adam told me your smarter than that, dont make a liar of him.

Please stay on topic, or mods, can you lock this thread.

Its a pity "defenders" of there fed cant control themselves on this topic.

 

[Christian]

Wait till i fix my growth hormone to normal levels then we will see..

Might give people an indicaiton on how fast my lifts inrcease..

 

[macmad]

So I'll simply assume that you use steroids, because I know you train in a gym that has steroid users in it, guilt by association? Youre with them 3-4 times a week, 200 times a year, we mingle with MAYBE drug user twice a year.

Paul, Adam told me your smarter than that, dont make a liar of him.

Please stay on topic, or mods, can you lock this thread.

Its a pity "defenders" of there fed cant control themselves on this topic.

The difference is I'm available to be drug tested at any time.
None of the PA lifters at my gym use. The ones that do compete with your federation, which welcomes and encourages them.

I've already answered your original question when I said in my opinion drugs provide a 20-30% increase.

 

[PTC]

Okay, so all my teenage lifters use simply because their is no testing lol

The PA mentality is showing clearly through your posts Paul

If you guys didnt wear silly suits, we wouldve joined PA, though I'm kind of glad we didnt now.

No offence to the other PA guys who posted sensible responses.

According to Paul, everyones guilty until proven innocent.

So sad.

 

[Spritcha]

I'm life time drug free and drug tested. I have have over 20 urine tests in the last 3 years and 3 blood tests. I honestly believe the current top lifters in PA are also drug free. Thats why I compete with PA. People can always claim that people are cheating and tests won't ever proof beyond all doubt that someone is clean- but that doesn't mean people are cheating either. I have heard stories about people cheating, but we arent talking about professional athletes with scientific resources or know how- but amateur lifters who get tested for a broad spectrum of substances in scientific labs. Australia is pretty good when it comes to drug-testing.
I agree it comes down to personal choice and I don't think the fed you lift in automatically means anything. I know guys who are drug free who choose o lift with CAPO for various reasons that have nothing to do with drugs. I don't assume anything about anyone unless the evidence is fairly obvious.
Anyway- back to the topic- I have no idea, but I have heard the figure is more like 10-15%- if thats the case I'd be lifting over 1000 if I was Russian (LOL- sorry couldn't help it!!).

 

[PTC]

Thank you very much big fella, my faith in PA has been restored

 

[macmad]

Okay, so all my teenage lifters use simply because their is no testing lol

The PA mentality is showing clearly through your posts Paul

If you guys didnt wear silly suits, we wouldve joined PA, though I'm kind of glad we didnt now.

No offence to the other PA guys who posted sensible responses.

According to Paul, everyones guilty until proven innocent.

So sad.

I'm not implying that all your lifters use, but any impressive results are tagged with the non tested stamp, so in my eyes they might as well be using.
You had the choice of joining DFPA who have had raw for many years, so don't blame your hatred of PA on suits.

 

[jonnie_sfw]

To keep things on track...

I have no idea...given the number of variables in the types of anabolics available couldn't even throw a figure out there. Enanthenate vs Prop vs Tren vs The latest undetectible wizz bang synthetic would all give different results and also vary for different people and in the hands of the un educated, like most things, would probably do SFA..