Feel like I've reached a plateau - require knowledge! Or have I?

[Fadi]

I am sorry but how do you come up with that? What is the time period where a trainer is serious and not? is 44mins not serious but 46 is?

Very strange comment - also when you include cardio and other non-weight related sessions - how do you figure these in?

If I do 45 mins of weights > hour of cardio - should I be doing 2 hours in total to be serious?


I guess your a man who likes scientific proof on facts people raise - could you provide any evidence advising that anyone training under 45 mins is not serious about training?

You do know a LARGE % of natural bodybuilders follow the max-ot/heavy duty approach to training where sessions last 30-45 mins on avg, what about guys like Mike Mentzer, DORIAN YATES, Skip La Cour - one of the best ever natural bodybuilders etc etc


Sometimes you are really out of your depth with comments and simply like to stir the pot....

All good points raised brother, but please do not expect a logical reply to any one of them, since the comment that instigated my original question (with further questions followed by you and Dave), was illogical, unscientific, and unfounded to begin with. Just take it on the chin and move one; anything 45 minutes or less renders you well...., less than serious! How can you argue with that type of "logic"?!

 

[Rugby88]

All good points raised brother, but please do not expect a logical reply to any one of them, since the comment that instigated my original question (with further questions followed by you and Dave), was illogical, unscientific, and unfounded to begin with. Just take it on the chin and move one; anything 45 minutes or less renders you well...., less than serious! How can you argue with that type of "logic"?!

Very true!

 

[Goosey]

Part of the joy of training, at least for me, is finding out what works.

Also, if multiple sets done four or more days per week actually, scientifically and really worked best, I wouldn't do it, or recommend it for most, as I know that it won't, in the long run, give the best results.

The vast majority can't 'get it up" for training that often and with job, family and other responsibilities, won't and can't train consistently, and/or hard, or productively.

Why not just 'do' more, and ponder less.

Remember that time-honored philosophical statement, 'I train, therefore I am'"

 

[jzpowahz]

Just wondering for you people getting sessions done in 45mins, does that include warm up time?

I will typically spend about 10-15mins doing my pvc pipe rolling and mobility work. If I was a bodybuilder and doing legs for example with first exercise being squats. That is going to be around 150-180kg typically. That means warming up with 20kg, 60kg, 100kg, 120kg 140kg before hand. 5 sets already plus time for loading plates etc. it adds up pretty quick.

My lower body sessions typically take about 2 hours. Warmup 15mins, heavy stuff about 45mins next hour doing BB style higher rep, lower rest stuff.

Upper/lower split 4 days a week btw.

 

[Goosey]

No warm-up for me, my muscles are already warm, my so-called warm-up is part of the set.
However, my workouts are always full-body, and I always start with the lower extremities first.
I'm pretty damn warm by then.

 

[Goosey]

Some of my workouts only last 14 minutes

 

[Repacked]

I follow Mentzer's high intensity principles. Sometimes I might only do 1 set consisting of one high intensity rep on which I'll fail. I might be in and out in 45 seconds...

 

[Goosey]

I follow Mentzer's high intensity principles. Sometimes I might only do 1 set consisting of one high intensity rep on which I'll fail. I might be in and out in 45 seconds...

He's not dead you know, he's just resting between workouts.

 

[Repacked]

He's not dead you know, he's just resting between workouts.

Beautiful

 

[jzpowahz]

No warm-up for me, my muscles are already warm, my so-called warm-up is part of the set.
However, my workouts are always full-body, and I always start with the lower extremities first.
I'm pretty damn warm by then.

Wow. No way I could do that. I'm naturally not very flexible or mobile. Without doing my warmup stuff I can't even get into the positions I need to to lift.

 

[Goosey]

Wow. No way I could do that. I'm naturally not very flexible or mobile. Without doing my warm-up stuff I can't even get into the positions I need to to lift.

My flexibility has improved over the years, IMO due to the manner at which I perform an exercise, I've always been very conscious of the pre-stretch and full contraction under load, I really think it's me over the last 20 or so years.

A good example of what i mean is the chin-up, *slowly* moving into the pre-stretched position really stimulates strength, I believe this is well a proven phenomenon.

 

[Repacked]

My flexibility has improved over the years, IMO due to the manner at which I perform an exercise, I've always been very conscious of the pre-stretch and full contraction under load, I really think it's me over the last 20 or so years.

A good example of what i mean is the chin-up, *slowly* moving into the pre-stretched position really stimulates strength, I believe this is well a proven phenomenon.

Can you clarify that a bit - when you say the 'pre-stretched' position in the chin up example do you mean slowly moving into the fully extended position in order to activate max fibres?

When you say your warm up is part of the set, are you using lighter weights but taking the set to a point of exhaustion which qualifies it as a 'working set'? Particularly with movements like squats the difference in my movement and flexibility between the first warm up set and first working set is significant, even after rolling and stretching.

@Fadi; do I remember correctly that you were proposing that stretching is not always productive as after a point if reduces the elastic reflex of muscles? I remember a UK powerlifter (I can't remember the name) who was saying in an interview that he would do most of his stretching the night before a meet and only stretch lightly on the day.

I can certainly see the logic in utilising the elasticity in muscles when they're at their shortest, but surely after a set or two that disappears anyway and the benefit of mitigating an injury by stretching outweighs the momentary increase in elasticity at say the bottom of a squat due to your hams being un-stretched and shorter than they might otherwise be. Not to mention the increased likelihood of butt wink or other form errors.

 

[Fadi]

Can you clarify that a bit - when you say the 'pre-stretched' position in the chin up example do you mean slowly moving into the fully extended position in order to activate max fibres?

When you say your warm up is part of the set, are you using lighter weights but taking the set to a point of exhaustion which qualifies it as a 'working set'? Particularly with movements like squats the difference in my movement and flexibility between the first warm up set and first working set is significant, even after rolling and stretching.

@Fadi; do I remember correctly that you were proposing that stretching is not always productive as after a point if reduces the elastic reflex of muscles? I remember a UK powerlifter (I can't remember the name) who was saying in an interview that he would do most of his stretching the night before a meet and only stretch lightly on the day.

I can certainly see the logic in utilising the elasticity in muscles when they're at their shortest, but surely after a set or two that disappears anyway and the benefit of mitigating an injury by stretching outweighs the momentary increase in elasticity at say the bottom of a squat due to your hams being un-stretched and shorter than they might otherwise be. Not to mention the increased likelihood of butt wink or other form errors.

Prior To A Workout, We Use Dynamic Stretching. Post Workout We Use Static Stretching. With DynamIc Stretching You're Moving As You're Stretching.

 

[Goosey]

Can you clarify that a bit - when you say the 'pre-stretched' position in the chin up example do you mean slowly moving into the fully extended position in order to activate max fibres?

When you say your warm up is part of the set, are you using lighter weights but taking the set to a point of exhaustion which qualifies it as a 'working set'? Particularly with movements like squats the difference in my movement and flexibility between the first warm up set and first working set is significant, even after rolling and stretching.

@Fadi; do I remember correctly that you were proposing that stretching is not always productive as after a point if reduces the elastic reflex of muscles? I remember a UK powerlifter (I can't remember the name) who was saying in an interview that he would do most of his stretching the night before a meet and only stretch lightly on the day.

I can certainly see the logic in utilising the elasticity in muscles when they're at their shortest, but surely after a set or two that disappears anyway and the benefit of mitigating an injury by stretching outweighs the momentary increase in elasticity at say the bottom of a squat due to your hams being un-stretched and shorter than they might otherwise be. Not to mention the increased likelihood of butt wink or other form errors.

Yes and yes.
In practical applications, we all make use of pre-stretching and the resulting stretch reflex in any number of ways, usually without even being aware that we are doing so, and seldom with any awareness of why we do so… pulling back before delivering a blow, the back-swing in baseball, cricket bat, tennis racket or in golf, these and hundreds of other movements involve pre-stretching and the stretch reflex.

If an exercise movement is started from a position that is not pre-stretched, then the resulting muscular contraction is not as intense as it could have been… a lower number of fibers are involved.

OR… if the movement is performed too rapidly, with or without pre-stretching, then a lower number of fibers are involved.
Obviously, then, an exercise movement should start from a pre-stretched position… and the movement should be performed slowly and slowly, using as much resistance as possible for about 7 to 12 repetitions.
But in practice, most trainees usually do one of two things… both of which are wrong.

They do not pre-stretch at all, starting their movements from a more or less relaxed position… OR, they pre-stretch, but then relax and actually start the movement from a relaxed position. In either case the value of pre-stretching is missed.

 

[Darkoz]

Just wondering for you people getting sessions done in 45mins, does that include warm up time?

I will typically spend about 10-15mins doing my pvc pipe rolling and mobility work. If I was a bodybuilder and doing legs for example with first exercise being squats. That is going to be around 150-180kg typically. That means warming up with 20kg, 60kg, 100kg, 120kg 140kg before hand. 5 sets already plus time for loading plates etc. it adds up pretty quick.

My lower body sessions typically take about 2 hours. Warmup 15mins, heavy stuff about 45mins next hour doing BB style higher rep, lower rest stuff.

Upper/lower split 4 days a week btw.

No warm up as such here either, I walk in and the first set is a light one for 8-10 reps then straight into two work sets.
Minimal rest between sets, full body, one exercise per body part, finished in 40 mins.
I do this 4 times a week

as an aside, I got back into it 9 weeks ago after a year layoff, have gained back 2cm on my arms so far with no change whatsoever in what or how much I eat.

as an aside to the aside, for those of you who are interested, full body workouts will increase your flexibility, while split routines, especially those with only one or two body parts per workout, will make you more inflexible.
This is fact, so don't ask me to reference a stupid study.

 

[Fadi]

No warm up as such here either, I walk in and the first set is a light one for 8-10 reps then straight into two work sets.
Minimal rest between sets, full body, one exercise per body part, finished in 40 mins.
I do this 4 times a week

as an aside, I got back into it 9 weeks ago after a year layoff, have gained back 2cm on my arms so far with no change whatsoever in what or how much I eat.

as an aside to the aside, for those of you who are interested, full body workouts will increase your flexibility, while split routines, especially those with only one or two body parts per workout, will make you more inflexible.
This is fact, so don't ask me to reference a stupid study.

Liked every single word in your post Darkoz. It should be labeled "The no bull post where armchair studies are seriously not needed!" Thank you Sir.

 

[Darkoz]

Liked every single word in your post Darkoz. It should be labeled "The no bull post where armchair studies are seriously not needed!" Thank you Sir.

You are welcome

 

[Goosey]

No warm up as such here either, I walk in and the first set is a light one for 8-10 reps then straight into two work sets.
Minimal rest between sets, full body, one exercise per body part, finished in 40 mins.
I do this 4 times a week

as an aside, I got back into it 9 weeks ago after a year layoff, have gained back 2cm on my arms so far with no change whatsoever in what or how much I eat.

as an aside to the aside, for those of you who are interested, full body workouts will increase your flexibility, while split routines, especially those with only one or two body parts per workout, will make you more inflexible.
This is fact, so don't ask me to reference a stupid study.

you don't know what you're talking about

 

[Darkoz]

you don't know what you're talking about

Always trust the pudding

 

[Fadi]

If an exercise movement is started from a position that is not pre-stretched, then the resulting muscular contraction is not as intense as it could have been… a lower number of fibers are involved.

OR… if the movement is performed too rapidly, with or without pre-stretching, then a lower number of fibers are involved.
Obviously, then, an exercise movement should start from a pre-stretched position… and the movement should be performed slowly and slowly, using as much resistance as possible for about 7 to 12 repetitions.
But in practice, most trainees usually do one of two things… both of which are wrong.

They do not pre-stretch at all, starting their movements from a more or less relaxed position… OR, they pre-stretch, but then relax and actually start the movement from a relaxed position. In either case the value of pre-stretching is missed.

There's another phenomena that also works, and adds to that intense muscular contraction you've referred to Andy. This unnamed "method" is used in order to avoid that "relaxed position" you've referred to above. You see what I'm talking about here with Olympic weightlifters when they initiate a lift off the platform. Most move ever so slightly, with two World champions really magnifying that movement (or let's call it muscular contraction) instead of the stretch you're referring to. To really exaggerate that muscular contraction before applying full force to the weight being lifted, hang lifts are performed. I myself could snatch more from the hang than from the platform. A lifter with muscles contracted or primed, (coked like a gun or stretched like a bow) before moving that weight off the platform, seems to generate a greater force than otherwise would have been possible from a relaxed (and 100% stationary) position off the platform.