Why I dont deload my lifters

[g-unit]

The best of the best Olympic weightlifters in the world were at times training 3x/day, 6-7 days/week.

Deload?

Like fresh air!

 

[dave]

This is such an awesome thread. Lets close our eyes really hard and pretend that the works of starr, kilgore, rippetoe, pendlay and louie who are all big on deloads never existed.

If the bulgarians didnt do it then it didnt happen, amirite?

That's not what he is saying. He says he would rather someone not come to the gym and have a full rest instead of a week of 50% intensity. He gives examples of lifters who have done it this way and says this is the way he likes it. He may call it softcockinit but that is because Markos like to be a smart ass and it was a pretty good line. So it is just HIS explanation of HIS methods. He has not gone on about other coaches until someone else brought them into it. Some people like deload weeks some would rather someone rest if needed, personally both methods are pretty similar to me.
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[PTC]

This is such an awesome thread. Lets close our eyes really hard and pretend that the works of starr, kilgore, rippetoe, pendlay and louie who are all big on deloads never existed.

If the bulgarians didnt do it then it didnt happen, amirite?

This post is just for young Oliver, who fails to acknowledge that people lifted weights before 2000.

I was sitting on the crapper reading, I eat a lot, therefore I crap a lot, which in turn means I read a lot.

I was reading PL USA and it listed the ALL TIME TOP 50 DEADLIFTS - 110kg

The reason I found this interesting is that equipment in the deadlift doesnt help as much as the other lifts, you need to rely on training.

So the top 50 All Time. The best lift was 402.5kg and the 50th was 360kg.

Here are the years they were achieved. In order.

1998
2004
1980
1986
1986
1985
1988
1980
1986
1988
1987
1982
2000
1981
1982
1982
1983
1987
1989
1996
1994
2009
2008
1971
1986
1987
2008
2007
2001
1981
1988
1991
2001
2004
2005
2009
2008
2009
2009
1980
1987
1994
1997
1999
1984
1985
1997
1997
1983
1984
1985

The significance?

Most were made before the internet was around, every one just lifted heavy rather than theorized.

So have progressed? We havent even held our ground, most of the early lifts were done raw.

Oliver, dont assume that todays trainers know better.

I will find a similar list for the squat. You will notice a massive difference. If todays guys know best, beat the old unequipped records to prove it.

Today they rely on equipment for bragging rights, pointing out how much they improve, they just get a better suit.

Fadi's post was spot on. The reason OL is more relevant is that they have to lift the weight today just like they did yesterday, not so with PL.

You will not find existing records as old as PL ones in OL, because theyve had to train to get stronger, not shop.

 

[PTC]

Okay, hows this.

ALL TIME TOP 50 SQUATS - 125kg class

First is 521kg and 50th is 432.5kg

2007
2010
2006
2010
2003
2007
2009
2008
2007
2008
2009
2006
2006
2008
1989
2005
2009
1987
2004
1998
2005
2008
2005
2008
2004
2010
1995
2005
2006
2006
2007
2007
2008
2010
2005
2006
2007
2008
2010
1986
2006
2003
1998
2009
2009
1993
2000
1982
2008
2008

You guys can look at the dates and make up your own minds if we indeed have got stronger during the internet age, or we simply shop better.

 

[Hawkpeter]

I too await Oliver's response.

Markos, for a thread that started as a statement on why you avoid deloading lifters and instead try to train around plateaus by prescribing similar movements with transferable training effects, it has now evolved into an attack on modernity.

There seems to be a salient theme on this forum that anyone who ponders too deeply about training will be surely emasculating themselves and anyone near them; this is tantamount to a sort of heresy it seems, even though the concession is made that other coaches can get an effect from, for example, the practice of deloading. Truly, where it a duty to worship the sun it will be prohibited to question the laws of combustion.

With your OP in mind, out there, right now, as we speak, there is someone who is struggling to squat 100kg. Whether it be through crappy coaching or none at all, laziness, lack of eating or trying to advance too quickly, that person would be better off taking some weight off the bar and working on the squatting skill and their general training mindset with less resistance, then working back up to and past 100kg. Its not really comparing like with like if we are comparing supervised lifting at your gym to a person un-coached and lifting by themselves. To identify deloading as a modern day evil that ensures weakness is careless because as a general rule there are so many exceptions.

What has totally gotten my goat is that the terms resistance and intensity have been totally robbed of their meaning in this thread. This is not a good thing and it is irresponsible.

It seems you have made the observation that the internet is to blame for a lack of increase in deadlift numbers and any increase at all is due to equipment shopping. This is kind of having an each way bet. It goes with the false dichotomy to either theorize or lift heavy. The pursuit of strength requires more than just effort. It requires good planning, research, the challenging of oneself that they are right and determination to succeed. The log book of every successful strength athlete is testimony to the trial and tribulations of their quest. It is also scientific data, we cant escape that reality.

As far as OL goes, you made a fallacious claim about WR numbers. Due to two weight reclassifications in recent years only direct sinclair comparisons can be made. Having said that, lifters of the late 80's would crush lifters now. The sinclair totals of Suleymanglu, zakherevich and Tarenenko in 88' would win gold in a jog. There are several reasons for this. Neither the internet nor effort on the part of the coaches and lifters are foremost, other factors are at play.

There are more to old records than meets the eye. Bubka still holds the pole vault record since 94', Sedykh still holds the hammer record from '86, Powell still holds the Long Jump record from '91. Peter Norman still holds the Australian 200m record from 1968. Heck, Secretariat still holds the record for 12 furlongs from 1973. All of these records stand for various reasons and none can be isolated to one thing in common. Well contested events across the mammalian world will not likely make massive jumps in a controlled environment.

Its the pursuit of science in strength sports that puts Jan Mi-Rang's best clean and jerk (female 75kg+ OL Gold in Beijing) above Doug Hepburns'; not effort. Not a lack of effort on Doug's or a burst of it for the korean girl.

There is a civil war going on right now in exercise, sport and fitness. Mostly its the exercise charlatans and workout mountebanks who are winning. Winning if by measure of making business and making money. The enemy is not science. These cranks are hiding under the cover of it and dirtying the pursuit. Healthy debate is required to weedle these people out, as well as intermittent challenges of strength. We're not going to put an end to crap in strength pursuits by painting ourselves as barbell ogres who just shut up and lift. We can be stronger and smarter.

 

[PTC]

Hepburn pressed the weight because of his gammy leg lol.

Other than science, drugs, technique and a few other factors come into play, but Doug was stronger lol

Tis a nice long thread now.

I just found the TOP 50 BP ALL TIME

I wont bother with the 50 years, there is only one prior to 2004 lol

 

[Oli]

Markos how much time have you spend sifting through all that to ensure none of those lifters used periodisation or deloading? (stuff that was used throughout the 50s-70s that Rip and Starr cottoned onto). I'm not big on old time lifters (nor would you be if you were 20) but off the top of my head ed coan and jm harris used them.

Whats annoying about this thread is your rubbishing the methods of those who have a similar success rate to you - eg go to Mark Rippetoes page. The guy has one of his lifters deadlifting 275 (same as your record) in a hick town gym with some 30 members, none interested in powerlifting. A quick google search would reveal people's similar results on stuff like 5/3/1, 5x5 and westside methods.

Again, I dont deload. I'm not going to rubbish the methods of other people however if it gets them bigger and stronger than me.

 

[Goosey]

We will never return to the art of exercise.
Until we remove the cold, sterile aspects of mathematics
Put away the scales, watches and measuring tapes.

Allow the trainee to seek, to explore, to experience and learn.
To let the very soul of the trainee grow along with muscle, bone and sinew.
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[Paullie]

Also how many of them used a belt for that record lift?

 

[Kyle Aaron]

an attack on modernity.

I think it's less "modern world sucks" and more "despite being so modern, we haven't improved much - so maybe the older stuff has some merit."

There seems to be a salient theme on this forum that anyone who ponders too deeply about training will be surely emasculating themselves and anyone near them

Bullshit.

The theme is simply that pondering is often a method of putting off work. Many a newbie has delayed starting their time under the bar or on the track by looking for the One True Workout Programme. He who ponders too long before his first step will end up with a sore leg.

With your OP in mind, out there, right now, as we speak, there is someone who is struggling to squat 100kg. Whether it be through crappy coaching or none at all, laziness, lack of eating or trying to advance too quickly, that person would be better off taking some weight off the bar

If their problem is poor or no coaching, that problem will remain after the deload.
If their problem is laziness, that problem will remain after the deload.
If their problem is lack of eating, that problem will remain after the deload.
Only the problem of having advanced too quickly could be usefully dealt with by a deload. Advancing too quickly, however, is a problem of poor or no coaching.

Its not really comparing like with like if we are comparing supervised lifting at your gym to a person un-coached and lifting by themselves.

This is true. This is why an intelligent routine will take into account whether the person trains alone or in company. For example, the routines I write for my PT clients are ambitious, the person may be doing exercises they find very difficult to perform correctly and increasing weight in every session. The routines I write for those in the gym working out whenever they feel like it are less ambitious, with simpler exercises and slower progression.

However, neither case inevitably leads to a stall in progress. The most common cause of stalls is simply a lack of will or courage. Most stalls are psychological, not physical. A glance through the programme cards in the filing cabinet in any gym will show people training irregularly and for weeks or months using the same weight, reps and sets on weights, the same time and speed and inclination or resistance on cardio machines, etc. That's willpower or courage.

It seems you have made the observation that the internet is to blame for a lack of increase in deadlift numbers and any increase at all is due to equipment shopping.

No, he's saying that in theory people having lots of information available to them should make them better lifters; but in practice it makes them worse, as there's too much information, overwhelming and paralysing them.

To my mind, the problem with deloads is not the deload itself. It's the poor coaching - and anyone who has themselves for a coach has a poor coach. All too often a burst of willpower or some good food or sleep would get the lifter out of the stall. Instead they deload, go backwards.

In our lives we will change jobs, go on long holidays, get married or divorced, have children, lose family members, get injuries and so on. Life will throw us many forced deloads, if we add some deloads by choice we'll never do well.

 

[haz]

To my mind, the problem with deloads is not the deload itself. It's the poor coaching - and anyone who has themselves for a coach has a poor coach.

Do Not Agree

I think people should read more on the internet and books and podcasts, anything they can get their hands on.

 

[PowerBuilder]

I think if we exchange the term 'deload' and exchange it for 'change things up' may proove worth while. If your having trouble with your back squats, it's maybe the right tine to 'change things up'. Do some work with box jumps, depth jumps medicine ball throws, box squats, 1/4 squats.

It's a puzzle involving volume and intensity. Let's not think about it too much. Lifes / exercise is about doing, not thinking. As silverback has noted, it's more of an art than science
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[PowerBuilder]

Do Not Agree

I think people should read more on the internet and books and podcasts, anything they can get their hands on.

You'll learn alot more from having a coffee and chat session with a world champion weightlifter (for example) than muddling through loads of hack websites and podcasts.

Tell me ONE world champion athlete who doesn't have a coach? Get one. You owe it to YOURSELF.
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[PTC]

Markos how much time have you spend sifting through all that to ensure none of those lifters used periodisation or deloading? (stuff that was used throughout the 50s-70s that Rip and Starr cottoned onto). I'm not big on old time lifters (nor would you be if you were 20) but off the top of my head ed coan and jm harris used them.

Whats annoying about this thread is your rubbishing the methods of those who have a similar success rate to you - eg go to Mark Rippetoes page. The guy has one of his lifters deadlifting 275 (same as your record) in a hick town gym with some 30 members, none interested in powerlifting. A quick google search would reveal people's similar results on stuff like 5/3/1, 5x5 and westside methods.

Again, I dont deload. I'm not going to rubbish the methods of other people however if it gets them bigger and stronger than me.

You may need to go back and read the original post oliver.

I never rubbished anyone, I explained what I did and why. Then it became a massive discussion.

Now Oliver, those lists I put up, surely your smarter than that.

those lifters you mentioned, the ones you said possibly deloaded, why are they NOT on the BP and Squat list.

All those lists prove is that equipment has played a bigger role than anything else in lifting. Equipment offers virtually no assistance in the deadlift.

Now all the guru trainers, those lifters from the 80's that Oliver said possibly deloaded, are we to believe that they didnt deload on BP and squat lol, why are there none on the BP list

Deadlifts made from an era before internet are still competetive and ahead of lifts made since, not true with bench and squat.

Someone please tell me why?

Its the same sport, same lifters, every guru's system is better, why such a massive difference?

I feel the lack of equipment has forced OL coaches to find better ways to train, you cant rely on rule changes and thicker suits.

The Americans and Australians, the Commonwealth really, dont train anywhere near as much as the Chinese, Russians, Bulgarians, Turks, Greeks etc when it comes to OL.

As Fadi pointed out, up to 20 sessions a week.

 

[Oli]

Markos,

You stated your methods to which i said 'different strokes for different folks'. I stepped back in when things turned into a chaosandpain style rant on 'softcockingit'

I've seen your old school lifts. I'm not familiar with the old school but they seem to miss the following:
- They assume nobody ever deloaded ever. Ed Coan pulled 900 and was a big periodisation advocate (and still is).
- Lifts from the Hoffman era were often just gym records.
- Drug use. Do you want to tell me Doug Young would be allowed to compete in the IPF today?

This ignores the fact that todays lifts are still impressive - kroc's 850lb pull would have been impressive regardless of context, despite his deloading.

What would be interesting is how many people doing the excessive volume, 'notsoftcockingit' approach have burnt out. OL lifters in soviet bloc countries are notorious for it, and a lot of those famous powerlifters went missing in the 90s (dave pasanella comes to mind). Is that the approach you're after?

 

[Oli]

Also i really object to Starr and Rippetoe being labelled 'gurus'. Just like yourself they had some pretty solid lifts and a passion for teaching people barbell training.

 

[Hawkpeter]

Originally Posted by Hawkpeter
an attack on modernity.

I think it's less "modern world sucks" and more "despite being so modern, we haven't improved much - so maybe the older stuff has some merit."

Nothing is better just because it is newer or older. There is only more efficient and less efficient. Only better is better.

The point I made about the civil war in exercise we are currently experiencing is about keeping the fight up against snake oil salesmanship and pseudoscience. That's what is keeping us back. Rage all we like but we have to contend with numerous factors for why absolute strength numbers have progressed very slowly in the last generation.

Quote:
There seems to be a salient theme on this forum that anyone who ponders too deeply about training will be surely emasculating themselves and anyone near them


Bullshit.

The theme is simply that pondering is often a method of putting off work. Many a newbie has delayed starting their time under the bar or on the track by looking for the One True Workout Programme. He who ponders too long before his first step will end up with a sore leg.

My advocacy is for falsifiable training methods. Nothing about training without absolute effort. I stand by my observation that many posters here link careful planning and technical proficiency in the lifts with procrastination or lack of mental toughness; as you have just demonstrated. Thank you for making my point for me.

Quote:
With your OP in mind, out there, right now, as we speak, there is someone who is struggling to squat 100kg. Whether it be through crappy coaching or none at all, laziness, lack of eating or trying to advance too quickly, that person would be better off taking some weight off the bar

If their problem is poor or no coaching, that problem will remain after the deload.
If their problem is laziness, that problem will remain after the deload.
If their problem is lack of eating, that problem will remain after the deload.
Only the problem of having advanced too quickly could be usefully dealt with by a deload. Advancing too quickly, however, is a problem of poor or no coaching.

I am not advocating a deload without addressing the other issues. That would be obvious to most people. Taking weight off the bar is a solution to one problem which coupled with fixing the other problems will arrive at a better result.

Quote:
Its not really comparing like with like if we are comparing supervised lifting at your gym to a person un-coached and lifting by themselves.

This is true. This is why an intelligent routine will take into account whether the person trains alone or in company. For example, the routines I write for my PT clients are ambitious, the person may be doing exercises they find very difficult to perform correctly and increasing weight in every session. The routines I write for those in the gym working out whenever they feel like it are less ambitious, with simpler exercises and slower progression.

However, neither case inevitably leads to a stall in progress. The most common cause of stalls is simply a lack of will or courage. Most stalls are psychological, not physical. A glance through the programme cards in the filing cabinet in any gym will show people training irregularly and for weeks or months using the same weight, reps and sets on weights, the same time and speed and inclination or resistance on cardio machines, etc. That's willpower or courage.

There is not much point addressing the issue of casual recreational lifters regarding stalls and deloads as there is a myriad of other issues at play. Its interesting to think about courage and willpower for dedicated lifters however. I dont think that those psychological factors are actually the biggest issue. For the elite athlete and coach I'm equally concerned about how lack of effort leads to failure as I am lack of intelligent training methods leading to it.

Its probably to do with the kind of people who come to my gym. Whilst many are completely new to lifting, I also have numerous very elite athletes from various sports who have hit plateaus and injury in their sporting output. The two most common things that get fixed is their lifting technique and their running technique. The fact that they improve rapidly in a short time despite equality in effort suggests to me that smarter then harder was the best method. Please someone, disingenuously strawman my argument that I advocate either effort OR careful planning in training.

I think its helpful to look at something like horse racing or greyhound racing as we are in fact more cognitively evolved distant mammalian cousins. These animals dont have the highly complex pre-frontal cortexs that we do. In fact they have an even more lopsided adrenaline to cognition imbalance than we do. Both greyhounds and thoroughbreds have a kind of long term guided evolution unlike that of humans. They have finely controlled environments perfect for study and optimization. What we find there is that record times are only marginally better in the last decade than they were in the 70's, 80's and 90's. In some cases they are no better. Breeders and trainers are acknowledging a physical peak performance that breeding cannot improve apon much and only gene therapy can. These animals are simple representations of our own physical realities that we are close to our limits physically and neutering the complex mental calculating has its own horizon too. Animals, of which we are kin, can only be more highly motivated with direct threats, they give very close to absolute effort.

None of this excuses or makes argument for laziness or lack of effort in training, but while we can break horses and greyhound down and send them off to the glue factory I think humans raging away masochistically at some limits of their own need better advice than shut up and lift, dont think about a smarter solution or consider going backwards to go forwards.

Quote:
It seems you have made the observation that the internet is to blame for a lack of increase in deadlift numbers and any increase at all is due to equipment shopping.


No, he's saying that in theory people having lots of information available to them should make them better lifters; but in practice it makes them worse, as there's too much information, overwhelming and paralysing them.

To my mind, the problem with deloads is not the deload itself. It's the poor coaching - and anyone who has themselves for a coach has a poor coach. All too often a burst of willpower or some good food or sleep would get the lifter out of the stall. Instead they deload, go backwards.

In our lives we will change jobs, go on long holidays, get married or divorced, have children, lose family members, get injuries and so on. Life will throw us many forced deloads, if we add some deloads by choice we'll never do well.

It says all I could say. Thank you. We're going to dig up Shirley Strachan, The Skyhooks are reforming and they're going to redo one of their songs and call it 'Deload is not a dirty word.'

 

[PTC]

When I pass comment it's valid to the lifters on here
This all came about because of the info given to a novice lifter
So I passed comment on what I do with my novice litters
As always on the Internet experts that coach no one pipe up


And this is the result
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[Ben]

I like boobs

 

[PowerBuilder]

PB likes apples