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Whoa, this thread has turned into frankenstein's monster.
Not only is deloading poorly defined here but so is softcockin.
If deloading and softcockin are lifting submaximally with disregard to bar speed then that training time could probably be better spent. To me, that is not what deloading is. I dont think it is the removal of intensity. I think it is the removal of resistance.
There are three inescapable questions in physical world, and therefore in lifting.
-How much weight. (notice I didn't say mass, otherwise I would have to include the consideration of gravity)
-How far it moved.
-How long it took.
Success in the slow lifts is not concerned with time. Nobody does a count back of 2 lifter's equal lifts in the deadlift and then says..."well that guy's lift was quicker, he's the winner" (a faster deadlift may suggest that a greater load could be lifted however). There is no flight phase in the slow lifts as apposed to the quick lifts, so time is not nearly as important in the establishment of most weight lifted over a given distance. Truly, the naming of the sports of Weightlifting and Powerlifting should be switched.
Now, why do I mention this? Because the third question determines the power generated in the lift and therefore its intensity. When prescribing exercise we will have to decide whether we can get a training effect from a lighter lift being more powerful and whether that will create a heavier maximal lift in the future.
I see the decision to choose a deload as an opportunity to concentrate on being more powerful and avoided the possibility of missing a lift. The benefits can be technical and electrical. Regarding the electrical improvements, setting the resistance below a previous training resistance can teach the nervous system to recruit more of the necessary fibers and allows cross wiring of fiber types to potentially occur, the expression of them is therefore different in the muscle. If you're interested, research all you can on cross-innervation of muscle fibers.
The decision not to deload, but instead plough ahead, may cause a missed opportunity for these benefits and instead create other new problems like injury, stagnation and sympathetic nervous system disaster. Missed lifts are not good for progress obviously and in fact, you could call it a forced deload. A missed slow lift has a time under tension unlike that of a missed quick lift eg a snatch, clean or jerk. Most people reading this know what it feels like to miss a lift and then miss everything after it that you try to reset down to.
CNS fatigue or failure should not be confused with contractile shut down caused by lactate and calcium deposits in the muscle fibers. These are easily confused. Its also not the same thing as sympathetic system dominance and the build up of unwanted metabolites. Be wary of the use of these terms as they are completely different with subtly different symptoms.
The decision for a total removal of the lifter from the gym altogether then creates a new decision. When they start lifting again where do they start? Exactly where they left off? When is a lifter tapered? When are they super-compensated? When are they due for a deload? The issue of adapting to stress is complicated by the fact that not all systems in the body adapt at the same rate.
All of this is avoided with a subtle change. It seems the ego in this case is writing cheques that the mammalian body cannot cash. So I dont deload my athletes in the gym..... I 'reload'. Same practice different word, ego saved, success ensured.
Not only is deloading poorly defined here but so is softcockin.
If deloading and softcockin are lifting submaximally with disregard to bar speed then that training time could probably be better spent. To me, that is not what deloading is. I dont think it is the removal of intensity. I think it is the removal of resistance.
There are three inescapable questions in physical world, and therefore in lifting.
-How much weight. (notice I didn't say mass, otherwise I would have to include the consideration of gravity)
-How far it moved.
-How long it took.
Success in the slow lifts is not concerned with time. Nobody does a count back of 2 lifter's equal lifts in the deadlift and then says..."well that guy's lift was quicker, he's the winner" (a faster deadlift may suggest that a greater load could be lifted however). There is no flight phase in the slow lifts as apposed to the quick lifts, so time is not nearly as important in the establishment of most weight lifted over a given distance. Truly, the naming of the sports of Weightlifting and Powerlifting should be switched.
Now, why do I mention this? Because the third question determines the power generated in the lift and therefore its intensity. When prescribing exercise we will have to decide whether we can get a training effect from a lighter lift being more powerful and whether that will create a heavier maximal lift in the future.
I see the decision to choose a deload as an opportunity to concentrate on being more powerful and avoided the possibility of missing a lift. The benefits can be technical and electrical. Regarding the electrical improvements, setting the resistance below a previous training resistance can teach the nervous system to recruit more of the necessary fibers and allows cross wiring of fiber types to potentially occur, the expression of them is therefore different in the muscle. If you're interested, research all you can on cross-innervation of muscle fibers.
The decision not to deload, but instead plough ahead, may cause a missed opportunity for these benefits and instead create other new problems like injury, stagnation and sympathetic nervous system disaster. Missed lifts are not good for progress obviously and in fact, you could call it a forced deload. A missed slow lift has a time under tension unlike that of a missed quick lift eg a snatch, clean or jerk. Most people reading this know what it feels like to miss a lift and then miss everything after it that you try to reset down to.
CNS fatigue or failure should not be confused with contractile shut down caused by lactate and calcium deposits in the muscle fibers. These are easily confused. Its also not the same thing as sympathetic system dominance and the build up of unwanted metabolites. Be wary of the use of these terms as they are completely different with subtly different symptoms.
The decision for a total removal of the lifter from the gym altogether then creates a new decision. When they start lifting again where do they start? Exactly where they left off? When is a lifter tapered? When are they super-compensated? When are they due for a deload? The issue of adapting to stress is complicated by the fact that not all systems in the body adapt at the same rate.
All of this is avoided with a subtle change. It seems the ego in this case is writing cheques that the mammalian body cannot cash. So I dont deload my athletes in the gym..... I 'reload'. Same practice different word, ego saved, success ensured.
Pete, I know all this.
This thread was a response to a guy who squats 100kg, follows Rip, which calls for deloads when the lifters progress stalls.
Then guys got on here telling him to deload to 70kg and climb up again.
That is the worst information posted on here.
I reckon the results of lifters from PTC at State, National and World comps may point to the fact that maybe, just maybe, what were doing is currently working.
If everyone went back to the original post, read it, and comprehended it, we couldve wiped out 95% of the following posts.
If you need a rest, have a rest.
If you miss lifts, continually, have a good look at your training.
If you need to deload because your missing 100kg squats, pick a new hobby.
This thread was a response to a guy who squats 100kg, follows Rip, which calls for deloads when the lifters progress stalls.
Then guys got on here telling him to deload to 70kg and climb up again.
That is the worst information posted on here.
I reckon the results of lifters from PTC at State, National and World comps may point to the fact that maybe, just maybe, what were doing is currently working.
If everyone went back to the original post, read it, and comprehended it, we couldve wiped out 95% of the following posts.
If you need a rest, have a rest.
If you miss lifts, continually, have a good look at your training.
If you need to deload because your missing 100kg squats, pick a new hobby.
I think the method of deloading or resetting newbie lifters is largely there to accommodate three stuff ups of the lifter.
-That the lifter didn't allow themselves to adapt because they didnt get enough rest or food.
-That they aren't concentrating on lifting the barbell well enough and their form still sucks.
-They added weight too quickly or too much at one time.
With good coaching and good lifter habits there is no theoretical reason to reset and if they start with conservative enough resistance. Its just the law of progressive overload.
Most of the time intermediate lifters and below need to suck it up and finish their lifts; most of the time sadly they have sabotaged themselves before they even arrive at the gym. To use this phenomena to bitch out on a set though, when you really could grind it out is what will ensure that they stay pathetic and weak.
-That the lifter didn't allow themselves to adapt because they didnt get enough rest or food.
-That they aren't concentrating on lifting the barbell well enough and their form still sucks.
-They added weight too quickly or too much at one time.
With good coaching and good lifter habits there is no theoretical reason to reset and if they start with conservative enough resistance. Its just the law of progressive overload.
Most of the time intermediate lifters and below need to suck it up and finish their lifts; most of the time sadly they have sabotaged themselves before they even arrive at the gym. To use this phenomena to bitch out on a set though, when you really could grind it out is what will ensure that they stay pathetic and weak.
Kyle Aaron
Active member
As well as changing exercises, there is changing rep range. Would that be another tool in your box, Markos?
A lifter I coach was doing squats for 3x5. He stalled on 75kg or so. I got him to drop it to 60kg... but do 20 reps - and drink 1lt of milk during each session and eat another 1kg of meat weekly.
And he recently squatted 90kg x20. He's an office worker, and had a lot of interruptions to his training from travelling to work, so progress hasn't been as quick as it could be, this took him 8 weeks. He is 6'1" and 95kg. When he gets 95kg x20 we will try out some max lifts for him, and then have a week off.
I feel that dropping the weight 20% but going from 3x5 to 20 reps is not softcockinit, perhaps harder men will think otherwise.
A lifter I coach was doing squats for 3x5. He stalled on 75kg or so. I got him to drop it to 60kg... but do 20 reps - and drink 1lt of milk during each session and eat another 1kg of meat weekly.
And he recently squatted 90kg x20. He's an office worker, and had a lot of interruptions to his training from travelling to work, so progress hasn't been as quick as it could be, this took him 8 weeks. He is 6'1" and 95kg. When he gets 95kg x20 we will try out some max lifts for him, and then have a week off.
I feel that dropping the weight 20% but going from 3x5 to 20 reps is not softcockinit, perhaps harder men will think otherwise.
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Iron Alliance
New member
It can be done after I give an anecdote about deloading.
In using 5/3/1 for a good amount of time (8+ Months) I found that the prescribed deload week was detrimental in that if I was truly fatigued mentally/physically enough to require a deload, I wouldn't want to do anything at all. If I didn't feel I needed the deload, which was most of the time, all it would do was waste a week worth of training. Now if you wanted to switch it up and change to a bodybuilding style training as opposed to strength based for a "deload" and provide a different stimulus, sure, go for it, but this really applies to your average gym rat just wanting to get a bit stronger/leaner/look better etc.
Before this I trained 6 days/week. 4 compounds 2 isolations as heavy as I could go for:
-Mon/Tue 13-15reps
-Wed/Thur 8-10reps
-Fri/Sat 5-8reps.
This was done with a ramped volume over 3 weeks, i.e: an extra set each week. Though when you got to the 4th week, you'd be pretty burned out and drop the volume down to a max of 3 sets, but increase the intensity through a lower rep range. With the decreased volume it allowed sufficient recovery though "more" intensity so you're not just softcockinit. It was claimed this would create a sort of "supercompensation" effect. I found it worked really well for me, though I was eating a lot more than usual because of the amount of training. I also enjoyed being in the Gym.
Basically, I think if you're worn out enough to require a "deload", you should just rest, eat and recover. Deloading for longevity I don't think works untill you're a world class lifter.
Just my 2c having used deloading and not deloading.
In using 5/3/1 for a good amount of time (8+ Months) I found that the prescribed deload week was detrimental in that if I was truly fatigued mentally/physically enough to require a deload, I wouldn't want to do anything at all. If I didn't feel I needed the deload, which was most of the time, all it would do was waste a week worth of training. Now if you wanted to switch it up and change to a bodybuilding style training as opposed to strength based for a "deload" and provide a different stimulus, sure, go for it, but this really applies to your average gym rat just wanting to get a bit stronger/leaner/look better etc.
Before this I trained 6 days/week. 4 compounds 2 isolations as heavy as I could go for:
-Mon/Tue 13-15reps
-Wed/Thur 8-10reps
-Fri/Sat 5-8reps.
This was done with a ramped volume over 3 weeks, i.e: an extra set each week. Though when you got to the 4th week, you'd be pretty burned out and drop the volume down to a max of 3 sets, but increase the intensity through a lower rep range. With the decreased volume it allowed sufficient recovery though "more" intensity so you're not just softcockinit. It was claimed this would create a sort of "supercompensation" effect. I found it worked really well for me, though I was eating a lot more than usual because of the amount of training. I also enjoyed being in the Gym.
Basically, I think if you're worn out enough to require a "deload", you should just rest, eat and recover. Deloading for longevity I don't think works untill you're a world class lifter.
Just my 2c having used deloading and not deloading.
ChewOnALiveAnimal
New member
Just so I'm clear, as this thread has turned as clear as mud:
If I can't put in 100% effort, take the workout session off? I don't know how to do anything but 100% (I don't keep a diary, etc). If so then my life is just that little bit easier.
That wasn't me being a smart ass. Its a genuine question.
If I can't put in 100% effort, take the workout session off? I don't know how to do anything but 100% (I don't keep a diary, etc). If so then my life is just that little bit easier.
That wasn't me being a smart ass. Its a genuine question.
Iron Alliance
New member
Mmy above post was sort of a long way of saying go by how you feel. If you "feel" your session isn't going to be great, you're just going to go through the motions. Take a day off, eat food, recover and come back stronger.
Scheduled de-loads I think are uneccessary to any but the most elite lifters/athletes as it serves to only hold you back. It's just being in tune with your body.
Scheduled de-loads I think are uneccessary to any but the most elite lifters/athletes as it serves to only hold you back. It's just being in tune with your body.
ChewOnALiveAnimal
New member
Thats how I read it. Can PTC confirm this is the spirit of what he means too?
Very, very, very few lifters take a night off at PTC due to not feeling right.
Remember, they pay me to train them. If I notice little things like bar speed, stiffness etc, I switch things around, thats what theyre paying for.
I do have some clients who simply pay to use the equipment and dont want/need me to train them, not many, but a few.
I have watched them struggle through MANY sessions, just like Mitch described.
The advantage of having another set of eyes is invaluable, the absolute best athletes in the world do, its funny how some think they dont need it.
I actually sit back and chuckle as I watch them struggle, I offer my bit, but it goes largely ignored.
None of the lifters described above train full time at PTC, its mainly ones that train elsewhere and just do 1 session a week at PTC.
Another problem I have with them is I dont know what there last session was like, they may have had 3 bad ones in a row.
So to answer your question, just because you THINK your not right, you may be the worst person to judge.
Remember, they pay me to train them. If I notice little things like bar speed, stiffness etc, I switch things around, thats what theyre paying for.
I do have some clients who simply pay to use the equipment and dont want/need me to train them, not many, but a few.
I have watched them struggle through MANY sessions, just like Mitch described.
The advantage of having another set of eyes is invaluable, the absolute best athletes in the world do, its funny how some think they dont need it.
I actually sit back and chuckle as I watch them struggle, I offer my bit, but it goes largely ignored.
None of the lifters described above train full time at PTC, its mainly ones that train elsewhere and just do 1 session a week at PTC.
Another problem I have with them is I dont know what there last session was like, they may have had 3 bad ones in a row.
So to answer your question, just because you THINK your not right, you may be the worst person to judge.
For anyone interested in CNS fatigue theres some good write ups here:
CNS Fatigue - CrossFit Discussion Board
Basically the ability of the neural pathways to fire up gets fatigued before the muscles do.
CNS Fatigue - CrossFit Discussion Board
Basically the ability of the neural pathways to fire up gets fatigued before the muscles do.
Fadi
...
The best of the best Olympic weightlifters in the world were at times training 3x/day, 6-7 days/week.
Deload?
Sure, train at 100%+ once a day instead of 3xs/day; now I can't think of how a great coach can be more merciful on your body and mind as to give you such a break from the norm!
The body and mind can withstand such a tremendous amount of stress, and the only way to increase the adaptability to this stress and prepare for more to come, is to find a way of going forward and not backwards.
When a rabbit is being chased by a fox or an eagle, a change of tactics to escape being eaten would be employed, for anything else would mean to be eaten alive!
Let me give you an example based on reality that would illustrate the human strength and endurance. This was what my young eyes have witnessed back in Lebanon when growing up.
Most Lebanese people in the city live in tall buildings made up of/between 7 and 15 stories high. At times (most of the times) these buildings have no lifts in them or electricity is out. A man (an old man) used to have the honourable job of carrying the fridge, the washing machine, and the rest all the way up to the top. Now this would make the Bulgarian Olympic weightlifters’ training sessions of 3xs/day look like child play wouldn't you agree? This man's life and the lives of his wife and children depended on him being fit and healthy. There was no ifs or buts, there was no: "I'll have a day off tomorrow," (no social security in Lebanon), you don't work you don't eat!
Now Markos's way of thinking doesn't seem so bad or so hard after all does it?!
I fully support coach Markos when he makes mention the power of the mind. Kyle would tell you, there's a reason why the commander in the army abuses the hell out of his new recruits, and it's not to make him feel superior somewhat or because he likes to put people down. The mind much more than the body, has to be trained to withstand the unexpected or else, winning that gold medal or climbing 15 stories high buildings should be left to ones who can handle it.
Fadi.
Deload?
Sure, train at 100%+ once a day instead of 3xs/day; now I can't think of how a great coach can be more merciful on your body and mind as to give you such a break from the norm!
The body and mind can withstand such a tremendous amount of stress, and the only way to increase the adaptability to this stress and prepare for more to come, is to find a way of going forward and not backwards.
When a rabbit is being chased by a fox or an eagle, a change of tactics to escape being eaten would be employed, for anything else would mean to be eaten alive!
Let me give you an example based on reality that would illustrate the human strength and endurance. This was what my young eyes have witnessed back in Lebanon when growing up.
Most Lebanese people in the city live in tall buildings made up of/between 7 and 15 stories high. At times (most of the times) these buildings have no lifts in them or electricity is out. A man (an old man) used to have the honourable job of carrying the fridge, the washing machine, and the rest all the way up to the top. Now this would make the Bulgarian Olympic weightlifters’ training sessions of 3xs/day look like child play wouldn't you agree? This man's life and the lives of his wife and children depended on him being fit and healthy. There was no ifs or buts, there was no: "I'll have a day off tomorrow," (no social security in Lebanon), you don't work you don't eat!
Now Markos's way of thinking doesn't seem so bad or so hard after all does it?!
I fully support coach Markos when he makes mention the power of the mind. Kyle would tell you, there's a reason why the commander in the army abuses the hell out of his new recruits, and it's not to make him feel superior somewhat or because he likes to put people down. The mind much more than the body, has to be trained to withstand the unexpected or else, winning that gold medal or climbing 15 stories high buildings should be left to ones who can handle it.
Fadi.
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ChewOnALiveAnimal
New member
So some are saying if you're not right, take off for the night. Others are saying work through it unless a panel or expert tells you otherwise.
Either way, don't use lighter weights.
Now the decision is, after my last bout of fatigue (lasting days after the last workout), do I lift today...?
Either way, don't use lighter weights.
Now the decision is, after my last bout of fatigue (lasting days after the last workout), do I lift today...?
ChewOnALiveAnimal
New member
Stuff it. I'm overthinking it. I don't want to go to work for the next 4 days with the same feeling I had for the last 4 days I've had off, so I'm going to skip todays workout. I did say I'm only lifting for fun now, and I guess if I have to think this hard about it, the fun is not there. I'm sure it'll be back in a couple of days.