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Strength & Conditioning for footballers
- Thread starter PTC
- Start date
Explaining things to footballers is not always easy, using a real life situation always works better.
We had 2 footballers in the gym tonight, Michael, 17, trains with Max and Steven, 18, trains with me.
Some of you will know about "the run" that I use to test athletes. Its 272m in length, but its broken down like this.
A 68m sprint, tun around a pole, a 136m sprint, around another pole then finish with a final 68m sprint. Thats 272m total with 3 starts.
Michael did it in 48 sec and Steven managed 51 sec. They asked what the record was and I told then Max had done it in 39 sec (he has gone quicker but was untimed, I'll explain another time).
They didnt quite comprehend what that time difference meant in terms of onfield.
I asked Steven that if he got a metre in front of an opponent goal side, he was a good chance to score a goal, he totally agreed.
I explained that Max was at the finish line before he got around the last pole, a lead of 70m after 40 seconds of hard running during a game.
Steve was literally stunned. The concept of running up the ground with the team commiting a turnover, then doubling back, effectively what that run represents, and 40 seconds later his opponent was on the goal line while he still hadnt got out of the centre square left him quite bemused.
I explained that in the AFL he would encounter infinitely better runners than Max, who has never gone for a run, and he understood the level he had to get too.
Michael, who is a midfeilder, literally couldnt understand someone his age being that much further ahead of him at running.
It was a real eye opener to both boys, imagine someone like Judd or Cousins lol
We had 2 footballers in the gym tonight, Michael, 17, trains with Max and Steven, 18, trains with me.
Some of you will know about "the run" that I use to test athletes. Its 272m in length, but its broken down like this.
A 68m sprint, tun around a pole, a 136m sprint, around another pole then finish with a final 68m sprint. Thats 272m total with 3 starts.
Michael did it in 48 sec and Steven managed 51 sec. They asked what the record was and I told then Max had done it in 39 sec (he has gone quicker but was untimed, I'll explain another time).
They didnt quite comprehend what that time difference meant in terms of onfield.
I asked Steven that if he got a metre in front of an opponent goal side, he was a good chance to score a goal, he totally agreed.
I explained that Max was at the finish line before he got around the last pole, a lead of 70m after 40 seconds of hard running during a game.
Steve was literally stunned. The concept of running up the ground with the team commiting a turnover, then doubling back, effectively what that run represents, and 40 seconds later his opponent was on the goal line while he still hadnt got out of the centre square left him quite bemused.
I explained that in the AFL he would encounter infinitely better runners than Max, who has never gone for a run, and he understood the level he had to get too.
Michael, who is a midfeilder, literally couldnt understand someone his age being that much further ahead of him at running.
It was a real eye opener to both boys, imagine someone like Judd or Cousins lol
We dont have very good development models in Australia for developing our football codes in my opinion.
The models seem to be more attritional rather than developmental. It doesnt seem like there is a strategy to make everyone better; more so many many games and practices are conducted with the beckoning of every higher intensity. The cream rises to the top and the rest falls by the wayside. Although generally successful in finding the best players, those players never reach their full potential because of major short comings in this selection of the elite levels. The naturally gifted will emerge no matter what the development model, however, if you play a game that is characterized by running, collisions and requiring a high anaerobic threshold then you better know how to run and you better be strong.
Many professional football players in all of the major codes are very good with their sporting skills but are generally weak and not very efficient runners. I can speak most accurately about the NRL as I am from Sydney. I cut out and saved an article in the paper from February about some of the strength standards of NRL teams. Not all were forth coming with information. However, some data was curious and shocking.
Firstly, I make it a practice to be highly skeptical of squat numbers outside of competition that I did not see myself or footage of. The deadlift is a hard lift to fudge and the best reported result was 210kg for 4 reps. Typically squat numbers were 20-30kg more than deadlift numbers which gives the data the strong stench of bullsh^t. I find it a little shocking that nobody in the NRL can proudly boast of a 600lb deadlift. The fact that some clubs reported a max deadlift of under 200kg was the shocking part.
I train quite a few young players who are in the local elite development squad. In the past they have "done weights" as a part of their development. From what I have to go on, its at the big commercial gym next to their club house and involves exercises probably better imagined than described. Needless to say, when they started with some basic barbell lifts they all gained weight, got faster and reported that they started playing better. Now its the offseason (or so I thought) they have all plateaued with their strength. Why? Because they are all banged up and yet the development model is for them to start trialling for the next elite squad just as their club season has finished. It means more laps, more ball work, more boot camp garbage. They never have a chance to get stronger and faster because they are in a constant state of over training and almost without exception, under eating.
Most of these kids play over 30 games of collision sport per year plus all their practices that go with it playing for reps, club and school. Some kids play union and league up here simultaneously making it even worse.
Compare this to what happens in the US. High school kids play 10-12 games in their football season. They have an off season training camp and preseason training camp. Their strength and conditioning programs run all year, and whilst vulnerable to stupid BS like the whole world is now, at least they make strength a high priority, have real lifting programs using barbell skills and make the ratio of training time to game time something between 6:1 or 9:1. That doesn't happen here. While there is a lot of things wrong with what happens over there, we could learn something just by asking ourselves, how are we going to get our players faster and stronger?
The problem is nobody seems ready to admit that this is vitally important, yet, I cant imagine a football coach who would reply in the positive if asked whether they would like their players to be faster and stronger.
The models seem to be more attritional rather than developmental. It doesnt seem like there is a strategy to make everyone better; more so many many games and practices are conducted with the beckoning of every higher intensity. The cream rises to the top and the rest falls by the wayside. Although generally successful in finding the best players, those players never reach their full potential because of major short comings in this selection of the elite levels. The naturally gifted will emerge no matter what the development model, however, if you play a game that is characterized by running, collisions and requiring a high anaerobic threshold then you better know how to run and you better be strong.
Many professional football players in all of the major codes are very good with their sporting skills but are generally weak and not very efficient runners. I can speak most accurately about the NRL as I am from Sydney. I cut out and saved an article in the paper from February about some of the strength standards of NRL teams. Not all were forth coming with information. However, some data was curious and shocking.
Firstly, I make it a practice to be highly skeptical of squat numbers outside of competition that I did not see myself or footage of. The deadlift is a hard lift to fudge and the best reported result was 210kg for 4 reps. Typically squat numbers were 20-30kg more than deadlift numbers which gives the data the strong stench of bullsh^t. I find it a little shocking that nobody in the NRL can proudly boast of a 600lb deadlift. The fact that some clubs reported a max deadlift of under 200kg was the shocking part.
I train quite a few young players who are in the local elite development squad. In the past they have "done weights" as a part of their development. From what I have to go on, its at the big commercial gym next to their club house and involves exercises probably better imagined than described. Needless to say, when they started with some basic barbell lifts they all gained weight, got faster and reported that they started playing better. Now its the offseason (or so I thought) they have all plateaued with their strength. Why? Because they are all banged up and yet the development model is for them to start trialling for the next elite squad just as their club season has finished. It means more laps, more ball work, more boot camp garbage. They never have a chance to get stronger and faster because they are in a constant state of over training and almost without exception, under eating.
Most of these kids play over 30 games of collision sport per year plus all their practices that go with it playing for reps, club and school. Some kids play union and league up here simultaneously making it even worse.
Compare this to what happens in the US. High school kids play 10-12 games in their football season. They have an off season training camp and preseason training camp. Their strength and conditioning programs run all year, and whilst vulnerable to stupid BS like the whole world is now, at least they make strength a high priority, have real lifting programs using barbell skills and make the ratio of training time to game time something between 6:1 or 9:1. That doesn't happen here. While there is a lot of things wrong with what happens over there, we could learn something just by asking ourselves, how are we going to get our players faster and stronger?
The problem is nobody seems ready to admit that this is vitally important, yet, I cant imagine a football coach who would reply in the positive if asked whether they would like their players to be faster and stronger.
macca
New member
I too have seen NRL youth development squads in the gym with trainers and on their own (Dragon's, storm, knights etc). I am yet to see any of these athlets performing explosive lifts such as power cleans and very rarely seen squatting or deadlifting. When i have seen them squat it has been 1/4 squats, with the trainer explaing why its bad to go deep! Though i have seen alot of big benches haha. This show's how backward the knowledge in improving performance through resistance training is backwards in alot of Australian footy clubs.
I cant resist the tangent in this thread about science. It seems science, which I would define as a method of knowledge, has been characterized as kin to the layer apon layer of quackery, pseudo-science, clever marketing and capitalization on the natural human trait of looking for a quick fix.
It is science that tells us that gaining strength in barbell lifting is going to be better than bosu ball skills. It's because these claims are testable and falsifiable. Its not folklore or legend that makes me prescribe barbell movements, its quantifiable results.
Markos, your training methodologies are scientific to the extent you can tell any of us exactly what would be different for your results not to be replicated. Your training prescriptions and results are repeatable and they receive a certain amount of peer review that is generally consistent with other tested strength enhancing methodologies and theories. I dont think you've ever posted something along the lines that there is some sort of magical barbell hocus-pocus at work, and let's not fall into the trap that analysis is always leading to paralysis. There is qualitative data in the science of lifting too. If a lifter misses a predicted 1RM PR in the deadlift because he was distracted by worrying about a sick loved one and just needed to clear their head that day, it doesnt mean your training system is bogus and doesnt work, it means the test is now tainted and no reliable results can be gathered that day.
But qualitative reports of improved performance are rightfully investigated skeptically. I'm almost at a point of preparing a new sign on the wall for newbies coming in wearing a power balance band, I mean seriously, "a 300% increase in power using magnets and holograms!" when the words scientifically proven come after it, we all pay a price for this mockery and ignorance. Many claims and in fact many scientific papers make headway using the same limitation of science. That it is provisional and that it is ratified by peer review.
Anyone can conduct a test and call it 'science', any published paper can linger in cyberspace without being shot down properly by peer review merely on the basis that nobody has seriously gotten around to it. Its a lot easier to make a claim than to shoot one down and it is this loop hole that has allowed snake oil-salesmen, charletons, gym hucksters and workout mountebanks to burn over exercise prescription and recreation for so long. Get used to it.
The defense mechanism is the scientific method. It has its limitations but it is the best we have. Note how quickly BS'ers will try to claim that their product or service is 'scientifically proven'. That's because they know how important it is. What we need is a better educated public, one that is skeptical, inquiring and critical. Science is your friend.
It is science that tells us that gaining strength in barbell lifting is going to be better than bosu ball skills. It's because these claims are testable and falsifiable. Its not folklore or legend that makes me prescribe barbell movements, its quantifiable results.
Markos, your training methodologies are scientific to the extent you can tell any of us exactly what would be different for your results not to be replicated. Your training prescriptions and results are repeatable and they receive a certain amount of peer review that is generally consistent with other tested strength enhancing methodologies and theories. I dont think you've ever posted something along the lines that there is some sort of magical barbell hocus-pocus at work, and let's not fall into the trap that analysis is always leading to paralysis. There is qualitative data in the science of lifting too. If a lifter misses a predicted 1RM PR in the deadlift because he was distracted by worrying about a sick loved one and just needed to clear their head that day, it doesnt mean your training system is bogus and doesnt work, it means the test is now tainted and no reliable results can be gathered that day.
But qualitative reports of improved performance are rightfully investigated skeptically. I'm almost at a point of preparing a new sign on the wall for newbies coming in wearing a power balance band, I mean seriously, "a 300% increase in power using magnets and holograms!" when the words scientifically proven come after it, we all pay a price for this mockery and ignorance. Many claims and in fact many scientific papers make headway using the same limitation of science. That it is provisional and that it is ratified by peer review.
Anyone can conduct a test and call it 'science', any published paper can linger in cyberspace without being shot down properly by peer review merely on the basis that nobody has seriously gotten around to it. Its a lot easier to make a claim than to shoot one down and it is this loop hole that has allowed snake oil-salesmen, charletons, gym hucksters and workout mountebanks to burn over exercise prescription and recreation for so long. Get used to it.
The defense mechanism is the scientific method. It has its limitations but it is the best we have. Note how quickly BS'ers will try to claim that their product or service is 'scientifically proven'. That's because they know how important it is. What we need is a better educated public, one that is skeptical, inquiring and critical. Science is your friend.
To the contrary, I understand completely the problem you are concerned about. The point I am making is to do with how one can defend one's self against all ignorance.
I make equal amount of business from the 'shut up and lift' crowd as I do the 'but mum said lifting weights will stunt my growth' crowd.
I had a member of the 2nd Commando unit in Sydney come and lift a few weeks ago. Very strong fellow, tremendous athlete by every measure. Hopeless deadlifter. Previous 1RM 170kg. 20min into his first workout he pulled 190kg. No yelling, no psyching up, only science. His dead lift technique was one of the most biomechanically inefficient methods I have ever seen employed and no matter of effort was going to change that. We thought smarter about it and then applied the hard work he was already capable of conjuring.
Anecdotally, there are those who will need more technical expertise and those that will need more psychological tampering. Lifting is no longer complicated for those who are already proficient but you can bet it seems real damn complicated to someone who is flogging their guts out and hitting a pathetic plateau for months on end.
To confuse the need for effort and intensity with the need to lift smart is strength training high treason.
I make equal amount of business from the 'shut up and lift' crowd as I do the 'but mum said lifting weights will stunt my growth' crowd.
I had a member of the 2nd Commando unit in Sydney come and lift a few weeks ago. Very strong fellow, tremendous athlete by every measure. Hopeless deadlifter. Previous 1RM 170kg. 20min into his first workout he pulled 190kg. No yelling, no psyching up, only science. His dead lift technique was one of the most biomechanically inefficient methods I have ever seen employed and no matter of effort was going to change that. We thought smarter about it and then applied the hard work he was already capable of conjuring.
Anecdotally, there are those who will need more technical expertise and those that will need more psychological tampering. Lifting is no longer complicated for those who are already proficient but you can bet it seems real damn complicated to someone who is flogging their guts out and hitting a pathetic plateau for months on end.
To confuse the need for effort and intensity with the need to lift smart is strength training high treason.
Last Friday I had 4 Frankston VFL players start with me.
Only one, Steve showed up on Monday.
Same kid on Wednesday.
Only Steve again on Friday.
I spoke to the coach, and the feedback he got was great and they would all be coming.
I guess its too hard.
Anyway, Steve has been doing well, he never quits.
I tested his 272m time initially and it was 51sec. Today he managed 46sec.
He trained with Nina today. She complained it was the hardest workout she had done for over a year, I actually got her to quit, so spare a thought for Steve.
They basically did a constant compound circuit, including
Squats
Bench press
Trap bar deads
Keg press
Chins
Dips
Thrusters
Sprints
272m run
Dips
Cannonballs
KB deadlifts
He is really chuffed over his 5sec improvement in a week on that run.
Funny thing is, they run every session at training, he has only run 4 times in a week with me, around 4 minutes total running. I guess the effort is greater, plus the KB work he has been doing will have helped.
Connor had just finished a session with Max tonight, he joined Nina and Steve on the run. Connor plays soccer, his season just finished.
He chucked his guts up after "the run", which he managed in 51sec.
He is my oldest daughters boyfriend. That'll teach him lol
She asked what I had done to him lol, he's a good kid
Hopefully I'll get more Frankston footballers next week.
Only one, Steve showed up on Monday.
Same kid on Wednesday.
Only Steve again on Friday.
I spoke to the coach, and the feedback he got was great and they would all be coming.
I guess its too hard.
Anyway, Steve has been doing well, he never quits.
I tested his 272m time initially and it was 51sec. Today he managed 46sec.
He trained with Nina today. She complained it was the hardest workout she had done for over a year, I actually got her to quit, so spare a thought for Steve.
They basically did a constant compound circuit, including
Squats
Bench press
Trap bar deads
Keg press
Chins
Dips
Thrusters
Sprints
272m run
Dips
Cannonballs
KB deadlifts
He is really chuffed over his 5sec improvement in a week on that run.
Funny thing is, they run every session at training, he has only run 4 times in a week with me, around 4 minutes total running. I guess the effort is greater, plus the KB work he has been doing will have helped.
Connor had just finished a session with Max tonight, he joined Nina and Steve on the run. Connor plays soccer, his season just finished.
He chucked his guts up after "the run", which he managed in 51sec.
He is my oldest daughters boyfriend. That'll teach him lol
She asked what I had done to him lol, he's a good kid
Hopefully I'll get more Frankston footballers next week.
Spritcha
New member
I don't want to hijack here, but it should also be noted that there are some awesome trainers involved and they are have a huge impact. Chuck (Daniel Dipasqua) trains Storm and has been involved with the Kangaroos- and his training partner and mentor Marty (Martyn Girvan) trains Collingwood. Both are exceptional powerlifting coaches as well as strength and conditioning coaches. Others at other clubs have taken note of the great work they have done.
4 came down on the first night. I'm sure its harder than they thought.
None quit, but I feel they may need a longer break after a long season. Goosey assures me that a "truckload" will be coming.
We'll see.
Its much easier training professionals, but all these kids work, most of them have trades, brickes, chippys, concreters etc
Top flite athletes dont get on the tools much lol, makes Chuckies and Marty's job a little easier.
The first AFL player I had put on 7kg in 10 weeks, he wasnt working.
I have spoken to Goosey a couple of times in the last few days.
I told him that only 1 boy had been coming, he organized another 2 tonight. He explained that others would be coming, they just needed a break.
Anyway, he came and watched tonight. He wants me to implement what we did tonight at Frankston.
I explained to him that what I'd seen was embarassing. The VFL are the 2nd highest competition in Australia. Tonight I had a tough quick little midfielder train.
He finished level with big Steve in the run. I explained to Goosey that Steve had trained with a 45yo mother of 5 on Friday. He asked how she went, to which Steve replied "She destroyed me".
Is that not the most embarassing thing a coach could here from an 80kg 18yo footballer?
He got straight on the phone and tee'd up a time for his strength and condition staff to come to PTC for a look at what were doing, meanwhile, his footballers were dying doing a very soft KB complex.
I explained it wasnt on strength that Nina destroyed Steve, which would be unfair, but conditioning, I had to go easy so he could keep up.
I had her only using 12kg KB for Thrusters, she normally uses 24kg.
On a bright note, Steve now his time on the Run down to 45sec.
I told him that only 1 boy had been coming, he organized another 2 tonight. He explained that others would be coming, they just needed a break.
Anyway, he came and watched tonight. He wants me to implement what we did tonight at Frankston.
I explained to him that what I'd seen was embarassing. The VFL are the 2nd highest competition in Australia. Tonight I had a tough quick little midfielder train.
He finished level with big Steve in the run. I explained to Goosey that Steve had trained with a 45yo mother of 5 on Friday. He asked how she went, to which Steve replied "She destroyed me".
Is that not the most embarassing thing a coach could here from an 80kg 18yo footballer?
He got straight on the phone and tee'd up a time for his strength and condition staff to come to PTC for a look at what were doing, meanwhile, his footballers were dying doing a very soft KB complex.
I explained it wasnt on strength that Nina destroyed Steve, which would be unfair, but conditioning, I had to go easy so he could keep up.
I had her only using 12kg KB for Thrusters, she normally uses 24kg.
On a bright note, Steve now his time on the Run down to 45sec.
Its not as easy as you think. Not that I've tried, but from the few S&C coaches from AFL clubs I have spoken too, I'm not sure I'd be there cup of tea, we are polar opposites.
I cant baffle people with bullshit, I prefer results, thats what Goosey is seeing already in Steve, a slow lumbering kid out ran a 172cm mid fielder, after only 11 days since starting with me
I actually had an oppurtunity with Melbourne Storm and I didnt follow it up, a friend got it.
I must admit I really enjoy what I do though
I cant baffle people with bullshit, I prefer results, thats what Goosey is seeing already in Steve, a slow lumbering kid out ran a 172cm mid fielder, after only 11 days since starting with me
I actually had an oppurtunity with Melbourne Storm and I didnt follow it up, a friend got it.
I must admit I really enjoy what I do though
spartacus
Well-known member
NRL strongest bench was 180kg in 2010 pre-season.
The only thing about AFL and NFL is whether lifts are done properly.
I remember seeing Dunstall bench 147.5kg on tv, and it had little to do with good form.
When I trained at the Richmond Football Club in early 1980s the best bench was 120kg. Players are clearly stronger today, despite drug testing.
The only thing about AFL and NFL is whether lifts are done properly.
I remember seeing Dunstall bench 147.5kg on tv, and it had little to do with good form.
When I trained at the Richmond Football Club in early 1980s the best bench was 120kg. Players are clearly stronger today, despite drug testing.