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Does it matter what fat you eat?

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Bazza20 said:
Since you seem to have got google diarrhea I am not going through and answering every point you have cut and pasted but I will go through this one.

You are very wrongly assuming that just because grass is a natural feed that it is always a safe, healthy and the best option for the cow. Wrong. Run a farm and see what happens instead of just googling shit and you will quickly see this.

I have dairy cows so this is where my experience is coming from.

1. Bloat. Cows eating pasture with large percentage of legumes can cause bloat which easily kills cows. I don't see how dead cows can be healthy. Addition of hay and grain into the diet reduces the incidence of bloat

2. Ryegrass staggers. Usually autumn and spring when grass is growing very fast causes the grass to become magnesium deficient. Cows will die very quickly with this. A grain mix balanced to include enough magnesium prevents this.

3. Milk fever. Milk fever is calcium deficiency, can happen a number of ways but the two main ones are feeding grass in the month lead up to calving and eating a calcium deficient diet during peak lactation. Grass often doesn't have enough calcium to support the cows during peak lactation and again yes they will very quickly die from this and again a grain mix balanced for enough calcium will prevent this.

Acidosis. Spring time with grass growing very fast lacks enough fibre for proper digestion causing acidosis. This can cause many long term problems. Prevented by adding fibrous hay to the diet during times of fast spring growth.

So I guess google didn't tell you that. Grass is not always safe and healthy for the animals and yes is can very easily kill them.

Edit: There are also more situations when grass is not the perfect only feed for cows but ill let sucram google these up first.
Click to expand...


Actually Bazza I didn't google any of those studies. They are studies that I have previously read and had saved to my computer, unlike you I have actually educate myself on what science has to say on the subject. And yes, I did copy paste studies, it's called citing real evidence instead of just going on a subjective rant without backing up my claims. What do you think scientists do when they want to consolidate their contention with evidence? They qoute studies and provide references.
You have also conveniently ignored the fact that the studies I qouted reveal your claims to be completely specious, ignorant and incompatible with clinical evidence. Making glib insults does nothing to detract from the validity of the studies...a study doesn't suddenly lose credibility just because somebody 'googled it'.
And being a farmer does not make you an expert on nutrition...it makes you an expert on farming.

Now in answer to your point by point arguments -

1: The solution is in the argument...the operative word here is 'legumes' of course feeding cows grass wtih legumes causes bloating...thats why you don't feed cows legumes or legume rich grass. Grain is hardly the best solution for this problem as cows have difficulty digesting grain (albeit not as much as legumes) and frequently develop liver tumors on a grain fed diet.

2: Grains may prevent magnesium deficiencies under these conditions, but no doubt so will hay.

3: I may not know the answer to this problem but obviously biodynamic farmers have a solution to it or they wouldn't be able to make a profit. To venture a guess I imagine that using hay to supplement their diet would compensate for the same deficiencies as grain.

4: Prevent acidosis with hay? Guess what, hay isn't grain, it's dried GRASS.

As for your comments about grass not always being healthy, that is a red herring. Let's give biodynamic farmers some credit and assume their intelligent enough not to feed their cows grass thats poisonous or harmful to them. I never claimed that all grass was good for cows, just that the species apropriate diet for cows IS grass. I didn't realise I needed to put a qualifier in their stating 'grass that isn't poisonous to cows'.
 
Ermagherd lol

But doesn't being a dairy farmer make you relatively knowledgable on farming, cows, the care of both AND milk? I would suspect so...

Educating ourselves is a beautiful thing, but research can't make up for, or replace our lack of practical experience.

The best way to know something unequivocably, is to DO IT.

I'm sure plenty of articles & research can be found that is contrary to & opposes the ones you've posted yourself? And thats the beauty of studies really, they're a bit like assholes, everybody has one :)

Or can at least show one, if requested. lol
 
sucram said:
Actually Bazza I didn't google any of those studies. They are studies that I have previously read and had saved to my computer, unlike you I have actually educate myself on what science has to say on the subject. And yes, I did copy paste studies, it's called citing real evidence instead of just going on a subjective rant without backing up my claims. What do you think scientists do when they want to consolidate their contention with evidence? They qoute studies and provide references.
You have also conveniently ignored the fact that the studies I qouted reveal your claims to be completely specious, ignorant and incompatible with clinical evidence. Making glib insults does nothing to detract from the validity of the studies...a study doesn't suddenly lose credibility just because somebody 'googled it'.
And being a farmer does not make you an expert on nutrition...it makes you an expert on farming.

Now in answer to your point by point arguments -

1: The solution is in the argument...the operative word here is 'legumes' of course feeding cows grass wtih legumes causes bloating...thats why you don't feed cows legumes or legume rich grass. Grain is hardly the best solution for this problem as cows have difficulty digesting grain (albeit not as much as legumes) and frequently develop liver tumors on a grain fed diet.

2: Grains may prevent magnesium deficiencies under these conditions, but no doubt so will hay.

3: I may not know the answer to this problem but obviously biodynamic farmers have a solution to it or they wouldn't be able to make a profit. To venture a guess I imagine that using hay to supplement their diet would compensate for the same deficiencies as grain.

4: Prevent acidosis with hay? Guess what, hay isn't grain, it's dried GRASS.

As for your comments about grass not always being healthy, that is a red herring. Let's give biodynamic farmers some credit and assume their intelligent enough not to feed their cows grass thats poisonous or harmful to them. I never claimed that all grass was good for cows, just that the species apropriate diet for cows IS grass. I didn't realise I needed to put a qualifier in their stating 'grass that isn't poisonous to cows'.
Click to expand...

This is pretty funny. You are trying to say science proves your argument. This is science, that's all dairy cow nutrition is and you are showing how little you know.

Also don't use science and biodynamic farming in the same sentence. Biodynamic farming is almost witchcraft planting crops based on hocus pocus rituals and other stupid shit.

I like how you said grass fed is the best for cows and perfectly safe but now it's grass and hay. Hay may be dried grass but it doesn't count as grass fed like you were arguing. Grains are basically just the reproductive part of certain grasses. So is grain considered to be grass fed as well.

1: again showing how little you know. Almost any pasture that cows graze contain a combination of plant species legumes are almost always included but you wouldn't know that because you had never seen a farm. Just saying dont includes legumes is the dumbest shit I have heard. Legumes are used because they fix nitrogen meaning less fertilizer needs to be used plus they are high quality feed.

Do you even know how to treat or prevent bloat?

Legumes are not difficult to digest. They are highly digestible that and high protein are part of the reasons why they cause bloat.

Also wrong. Grain is very easily digested, that is why it is fed to cows. It doesn't cause liver tumors it is liver abscesses (which grass can also cause) and that is only if the diet is unbalanced. Exactly the same as if the diet is wrong grass will cause problems.

2. Saying feed hay and it will be fine is bullshit. Hay may help minimally but it won't be enough to prevent cows dying. Extra magnesium is usually added to dairy cow diets to prevent this.

3 biodynamic farming is pseudoscience don't mention it again. Feeding grass and or certain grass hays in the lead up to calving will almost guarantee milk fever when they calve. After they calve, no hay will not prevent milk fever, not enough calcium. Extra calcium is added to diets

4. Yes hay presents acidosis but now you are changing your argument. Even though hay is dried grass if you knew anything about hay you would know its a totally different type of feed to fresh grass. You can't say grass is fine then lump all types of hay into it.

No farmer intends to feed grass that is dangerous to animals but it happens and most problems are unavoidable no matter what grass type you use, a lot is just due to the growing seasons. You need to manage it with the right supplements and balanced diet.

So yes just saying grass is safe is no different than saying grain is safe. Both can be safe and healthy in a balanced diet and both cause problems when the diet is wrong.
 
Last edited:
sucram said:
And being a farmer does not make you an expert on nutrition...it makes you an expert on farming.
Click to expand...

Funny. I missed this. I have studied dairy cow nutrition and actually was offered a job to work as a nutritionist for a company.

Stop saying science proves your shit talk when it doesn't.
 
Bazza20 said:
This is pretty funny. You are trying to say science proves your argument. This is science, that's all dairy cow nutrition is and you are showing how little you know.

Also don't use science and biodynamic farming in the same sentence. Biodynamic farming is almost witchcraft planting crops based on hocus pocus rituals and other stupid shit.

I like how you said grass fed is the best for cows and perfectly safe but now it's grass and hay. Hay may be dried grass but it doesn't count as grass fed like you were arguing. Grains are basically just the reproductive part of certain grasses. So is grain considered to be grass fed as well.

1: again showing how little you know. Almost any pasture that cows graze contain a combination of plant species legumes are almost always included but you wouldn't know that because you had never seen a farm. Just saying dont includes legumes is the dumbest shit I have heard. Legumes are used because they fix nitrogen meaning less fertilizer needs to be used plus they are high quality feed.

Do you even know how to treat or prevent bloat?

Legumes are not difficult to digest. They are highly digestible that and high protein are part of the reasons why they cause bloat.

Also wrong. Grain is very easily digested, that is why it is fed to cows. It doesn't cause liver tumors it is liver abscesses (which grass can also cause) and that is only if the diet is unbalanced. Exactly the same as if the diet is wrong grass will cause problems.

2. Saying feed hay and it will be fine is bullshit. Hay may help minimally but it won't be enough to prevent cows dying. Extra magnesium is usually added to dairy cow diets to prevent this.

3 biodynamic farming is pseudoscience don't mention it again. Feeding grass and or certain grass hays in the lead up to calving will almost guarantee milk fever when they calve. After they calve, no hay will not prevent milk fever, not enough calcium. Extra calcium is added to diets

4. Yes hay presents acidosis but now you are changing your argument. Even though hay is dried grass if you knew anything about hay you would know its a totally different type of feed to fresh grass. You can't say grass is fine then lump all types of hay into it.

No farmer intends to feed grass that is dangerous to animals but it happens and most problems are unavoidable no matter what grass type you use, a lot is just due to the growing seasons. You need to manage it with the right supplements and balanced diet.

So yes just saying grass is safe is no different than saying grain is safe. Both can be safe and healthy in a balanced diet and both cause problems when the diet is wrong.
Click to expand...




Science does prove my argument right actually. Notice how I actually qcited clinical studies which directly compared the nutritional quality of grass fed meat to grain fed? But I suppose controlled clinical studies are just ‘hocus pocus’ to an enlightened farmer like you.
As for your comments about biodynamic farming, I am aware that there is no scientific evidence for planting crops based on astronomical calendars. That is not what I like about biodynamic farming, what I like about it is that it has the highest standards of organic and sustainable farming practices, and that it is generally superior to organic food.

Studies have compared biodynamic farming methods to both other organic methods and to conventional methods. Most studies have found that biodynamic farms have soil quality significantly better than conventionally farmed soils but comparable to the soil quality achieved by other organic methods; the decisive factor is likely to be the use of compost.
A 2009/2011 review found that biodynamically cultivated fields
  • achieve lower absolute yields but better efficiency of production (relative to energy input)
  • had greater earthworm populations and biomass than conventional farms; both factors were similar to the result in organically cultivated fields.
  • maintained or slightly improved the organic carbon levels, while both organic and conventional farming techniques resulted in a loss of organic carbon.
1. had higher microbial biomass carbon and dehydrogenase activity than those of either organically or conventionally farmed fields. -Turinek, M.; Grobelnik-Mlakar, S., Bavec, M., and Bavec, F. (2009). "Biodynamic agriculture research progress and priorities". Renewable Agriculture and Food Systems 24 (2): 146–154.
2. Turinek,, Matjaz (2011). "Comparability of the Biodynamic Production System Regarding Agronomic Environmental and Quality Parameters". Ph.D. Thesis, University of Maribor.


Hay is grass mate, its dried grass. Using hay to supplement the diet is perfectly acceptable on a grass fed diet and is only used when necessary. When I said that grass fed was superior to grain fed I was referring to certified grass fed, which allows for the inclusion of hay, as long as no grain is fed. Once again you have also conveniently ignored the fact that all clinical studies comparing grass fed meat to grain fed meat shows that grass fed meat is nutritionally superior, which was the main point of my assertion.
Yes grain is the reproductive part of grass, it is the ‘seed’ of grass to be more specific, and no that does not make it grass any more than eggs are chickens because they turn into chickens.It is because plants and grasses are unable to flee from or fight off predators that they have evolved a unique defense mechanism that protects their seeds (grain) from predators. That defense mechanism is antinutrients and protein toxins. Antinutrients are substances such as mineral blockers (phytates) which impair digestion and contribute to nutritional deficiencies, that is why grain is difficult for all animals to digest.
Admittedly grazing mammals have evolved defenses for these toxins – for instance, digestive organs like rumens that allow the brunt of the toxins to be taken by bacteria.

Most of the problems you're talking about – bloating, acidosis etc. Are the consequences of grain feeding lots and are not problems associated with grass fed diets, I know biodynamic farmers and they do not have these problems with their cows.. A feedlot diet is low in roughage, so the animals do not ruminate as long nor produce as much saliva. The net result is “acid indigestion.” or “acidosis”.
Over time, acidosis can lead to a condition called “rumenitis,” which is an inflammation of the wall of the rumen. Eventually, the wall of the rumen becomes ulcerated and no longer absorbs nutrients as efficiently.
Liver abscesses are a direct consequence of rumenitis. As you conceded to earlier, liver abscesses are common on a grain fed diet...do the reverse deduction.
 
sucram said:
Science does prove my argument right actually. Notice how I actually qcited clinical studies which directly compared the nutritional quality of grass fed meat to grain fed? But I suppose controlled clinical studies are just ‘hocus pocus’ to an enlightened farmer like you.
As for your comments about biodynamic farming, I am aware that there is no scientific evidence for planting crops based on astronomical calendars. That is not what I like about biodynamic farming, what I like about it is that it has the highest standards of organic and sustainable farming practices, and that it is generally superior to organic food.

Studies have compared biodynamic farming methods to both other organic methods and to conventional methods. Most studies have found that biodynamic farms have soil quality significantly better than conventionally farmed soils but comparable to the soil quality achieved by other organic methods; the decisive factor is likely to be the use of compost.
A 2009/2011 review found that biodynamically cultivated fields
  • achieve lower absolute yields but better efficiency of production (relative to energy input)
  • had greater earthworm populations and biomass than conventional farms; both factors were similar to the result in organically cultivated fields.
  • maintained or slightly improved the organic carbon levels, while both organic and conventional farming techniques resulted in a loss of organic carbon.
1. had higher microbial biomass carbon and dehydrogenase activity than those of either organically or conventionally farmed fields. -Turinek, M.; Grobelnik-Mlakar, S., Bavec, M., and Bavec, F. (2009). "Biodynamic agriculture research progress and priorities". Renewable Agriculture and Food Systems 24 (2): 146–154.
2. Turinek,, Matjaz (2011). "Comparability of the Biodynamic Production System Regarding Agronomic Environmental and Quality Parameters". Ph.D. Thesis, University of Maribor.


Hay is grass mate, its dried grass. Using hay to supplement the diet is perfectly acceptable on a grass fed diet and is only used when necessary. When I said that grass fed was superior to grain fed I was referring to certified grass fed, which allows for the inclusion of hay, as long as no grain is fed. Once again you have also conveniently ignored the fact that all clinical studies comparing grass fed meat to grain fed meat shows that grass fed meat is nutritionally superior, which was the main point of my assertion.
Yes grain is the reproductive part of grass, it is the ‘seed’ of grass to be more specific, and no that does not make it grass any more than eggs are chickens because they turn into chickens.It is because plants and grasses are unable to flee from or fight off predators that they have evolved a unique defense mechanism that protects their seeds (grain) from predators. That defense mechanism is antinutrients and protein toxins. Antinutrients are substances such as mineral blockers (phytates) which impair digestion and contribute to nutritional deficiencies, that is why grain is difficult for all animals to digest.
Admittedly grazing mammals have evolved defenses for these toxins – for instance, digestive organs like rumens that allow the brunt of the toxins to be taken by bacteria.

Most of the problems you're talking about – bloating, acidosis etc. Are the consequences of grain feeding lots and are not problems associated with grass fed diets, I know biodynamic farmers and they do not have these problems with their cows.. A feedlot diet is low in roughage, so the animals do not ruminate as long nor produce as much saliva. The net result is “acid indigestion.” or “acidosis”.
Over time, acidosis can lead to a condition called “rumenitis,” which is an inflammation of the wall of the rumen. Eventually, the wall of the rumen becomes ulcerated and no longer absorbs nutrients as efficiently.
Liver abscesses are a direct consequence of rumenitis. As you conceded to earlier, liver abscesses are common on a grain fed diet...do the reverse deduction.
Click to expand...

Is your whole purpose here to troll this thread and act like a penis?
 
When I said that legumes were difficult to digest I was referring to the seed and pod variety of legumes that we generally soak and cook before eating. It occurs to me that you may be referring to legume grasses such as alfalfa, which is perfectly acceptable on a grass fed diet.

I may not know much about farming, nor have I ever claimed to, but I do know a lot about nutrition. I don't know the specifics of how grass feeding farmers manage their animals to prevent poisoning or deficiencies; but however they do it the end result is a more nutritious meat, higher in beneficial fats and caratenoids (and they do it without resorting to grain). I never claimed to be an expert on farming, all I said was that grass fed meat is obviously healthier than grain fed meat, and that science clearly supports that position.
Ruminants have evolved over 65 million years to eating a grass diet, if grains were really an essential part of their diet than they would have adapted to eating them in nature - that is not the case. Do you really think you know better than millions of years of natural selection?
 
sucram said:
When I said that legumes were difficult to digest I was referring to the seed and pod variety of legumes that we generally soak and cook before eating. It occurs to me that you may be referring to legume grasses such as alfalfa, which is perfectly acceptable on a grass fed diet.

I may not know much about farming, nor have I ever claimed to, but I do know a lot about nutrition. I don't know the specifics of how grass feeding farmers manage their animals to prevent poisoning or deficiencies; but however they do it the end result is a more nutritious meat, higher in beneficial fats and caratenoids (and they do it without resorting to grain). I never claimed to be an expert on farming, all I said was that grass fed meat is obviously healthier than grain fed meat, and that science clearly supports that position.
Ruminants have evolved over 65 million years to eating a grass diet, if grains were really an essential part of their diet than they would have adapted to eating them in nature - that is not the case. Do you really think you know better than millions of years of natural selection?
Click to expand...

You right. You do not know anything about farming. First off I am not arguing about the produce (milk or meat) being better grass fed or not. Ill leave that for another time.

My whole point is you can not just say grass is better for the animals. Grass can and does make animals sick just like grain can if the diet is not right. Please show me a scientific article saying is doesn't.

Two things wrong about your evolution argument. Evolution is all about survival not optimal. Just because that's the way an animal evolved doesn't mean that is the optimum conditions for the animal. Second, modern milking cows are so far removed for wild animals they originated from its not funny. Even cows from 30 years ago were averaging less than 3000lt a lactation. I have cows now giving 5 times that. You really think that what they need to eat is comparable to wild animals.
 
sucram said:
Science does prove my argument right actually. Notice how I actually qcited clinical studies which directly compared the nutritional quality of grass fed meat to grain fed? But I suppose controlled clinical studies are just ‘hocus pocus’ to an enlightened farmer like you.
As for your comments about biodynamic farming, I am aware that there is no scientific evidence for planting crops based on astronomical calendars. That is not what I like about biodynamic farming, what I like about it is that it has the highest standards of organic and sustainable farming practices, and that it is generally superior to organic food.

Studies have compared biodynamic farming methods to both other organic methods and to conventional methods. Most studies have found that biodynamic farms have soil quality significantly better than conventionally farmed soils but comparable to the soil quality achieved by other organic methods; the decisive factor is likely to be the use of compost.
A 2009/2011 review found that biodynamically cultivated fields
  • achieve lower absolute yields but better efficiency of production (relative to energy input)
  • had greater earthworm populations and biomass than conventional farms; both factors were similar to the result in organically cultivated fields.
  • maintained or slightly improved the organic carbon levels, while both organic and conventional farming techniques resulted in a loss of organic carbon.
1. had higher microbial biomass carbon and dehydrogenase activity than those of either organically or conventionally farmed fields. -Turinek, M.; Grobelnik-Mlakar, S., Bavec, M., and Bavec, F. (2009). "Biodynamic agriculture research progress and priorities". Renewable Agriculture and Food Systems 24 (2): 146–154.
2. Turinek,, Matjaz (2011). "Comparability of the Biodynamic Production System Regarding Agronomic Environmental and Quality Parameters". Ph.D. Thesis, University of Maribor.


Hay is grass mate, its dried grass. Using hay to supplement the diet is perfectly acceptable on a grass fed diet and is only used when necessary. When I said that grass fed was superior to grain fed I was referring to certified grass fed, which allows for the inclusion of hay, as long as no grain is fed. Once again you have also conveniently ignored the fact that all clinical studies comparing grass fed meat to grain fed meat shows that grass fed meat is nutritionally superior, which was the main point of my assertion.
Yes grain is the reproductive part of grass, it is the ‘seed’ of grass to be more specific, and no that does not make it grass any more than eggs are chickens because they turn into chickens.It is because plants and grasses are unable to flee from or fight off predators that they have evolved a unique defense mechanism that protects their seeds (grain) from predators. That defense mechanism is antinutrients and protein toxins. Antinutrients are substances such as mineral blockers (phytates) which impair digestion and contribute to nutritional deficiencies, that is why grain is difficult for all animals to digest.
Admittedly grazing mammals have evolved defenses for these toxins – for instance, digestive organs like rumens that allow the brunt of the toxins to be taken by bacteria.

Most of the problems you're talking about – bloating, acidosis etc. Are the consequences of grain feeding lots and are not problems associated with grass fed diets, I know biodynamic farmers and they do not have these problems with their cows.. A feedlot diet is low in roughage, so the animals do not ruminate as long nor produce as much saliva. The net result is “acid indigestion.” or “acidosis”.
Over time, acidosis can lead to a condition called “rumenitis,” which is an inflammation of the wall of the rumen. Eventually, the wall of the rumen becomes ulcerated and no longer absorbs nutrients as efficiently.
Liver abscesses are a direct consequence of rumenitis. As you conceded to earlier, liver abscesses are common on a grain fed diet...do the reverse deduction.
Click to expand...

Credibility = gone. Still mentioning witch craft biodynamic farming. Biodynamic and organic farming usually produce a lot less product for the land used. Many organic farming practices are worse for the environment. Organic farming encourages animal cruelty by withholding treatment from animals that need it. Organic food is not superior plenty of studies show no difference. So much for your organic superiority. Stop just cherry picking studies that suit your argument.
Why do people assume conventional farming is not sustainable. No one farms for just one season. The most productive way and only way to farm is doing it sustainability.
As for soil fertility I just got soil test back and had plenty of paddocks off the charts for soil fertility.

Again you say grain is difficult to digest. No it's not. GRIAN DIGESTS VERY EASILY. Bloat and acidosis are not only problems of grain feeding. Bloat is much more common on grass feeding. Acidosis and resulting liver abscesses are more common on grain but do also happen on grass. Either situation is not desirable and is causing money losses and need to be fixed by balancing the diet. How many times do I have to say it. Grass is NOT the perfect feed. You seem to have some feel good naturalistic thing that anything natural must be good, perfect and safe. Get in the real world natural is not always best.
 
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