bench programming

[Alpha Moth]

I just want something simple to follow without thinking "oh should i do 6x3 or 6 x 6, what weight, etc etc"

 

[Bench Polkov]

Why don't you do one of the Bill Starr 5x5 programs, just the bench section? Or 5/3/1's bench and press sections with extra benching on pressing day?

 

[solarbear]

I just want something simple to follow without thinking "oh should i do 6x3 or 6 x 6, what weight, etc etc"

Posted a workout a few pages ago.

The other as mentioned is 5/3/1. The boring but big template is surprisingly good. Most blokes follow the revised template and do the bench BBB on the OHP day and visa versa. Same for squats and deadlifts.

 

[Brick]

Posted a workout a few pages ago.

The other as mentioned is 5/3/1. The boring but big template is surprisingly good. Most blokes follow the revised template and do the bench BBB on the OHP day and visa versa. Same for squats and deadlifts.

BBB is main lift or derivative for 5*10. 5*10 bench or incline would be BBB on bech day. Unless Wendler has revised his book? I would think BBB assistance for bench would typicallly be 5*10 some sort of bench, 5*10 dips or some other supplemantry lift.

 

[The Hamburgler]

The 5x10 is for the same lift you use as the main lift

I know El Freako has had success will this template but for a n00bish lifter 5x10@60% or whatever it is seems too low to illicit a training response.
Maybe going rep effort style and attempting 2x25 might work better until the gap between say a 10RM and 1RM has been reduced

 

[Bazza20]

The 5x10 is for the same lift you use as the main lift

I know El Freako has had success will this template but for a n00bish lifter 5x10@60% or whatever it is seems too low to illicit a training response.
Maybe going rep effort style and attempting 2x25 might work better until the gap between say a 10RM and 1RM has been reduced

Yep Freako did real well on it but I know my bench went backwards when I followed 531 for about 6 months.

 

[Bench Polkov]

I never left it at 60%, I wave loaded my assistance as well, usually from 60-75%.
You got your rep effort work from your max set then you hit some high volume, reasonalbly heavy assistance and it doesn't say anywhere that you can't max out on your final set of assistance.

I also usually did DB bench press after my mil press main and 5x5.

 

[solarbear]

BBB is main lift or derivative for 5*10. 5*10 bench or incline would be BBB on bech day. Unless Wendler has revised his book? I would think BBB assistance for bench would typicallly be 5*10 some sort of bench, 5*10 dips or some other supplemantry lift.

Apparently he has made some revisions. The one he posted at Tnation was like this. Check the BBB 3 month challege:

Squat 531, DL BBB + Assistance
Bench 531, OHP BBB + Assistance
DL 531, Squat BBB + Asssitance
OHP 531, Bench BBB + Assistance

T NATION | The Boring But Big 3-Month Challenge

I started at 50% and instead of using a % and increasing the weight by 2.5kg, I just went up 5kg instead the first couple of times to be somewhere above 60%. As Wendler says best to start light and work up. Seems to be the mantra of the whole program. I also try to keep the rest down as much as possible and by the 4th set your feeling it.

 

[Brick]

Apparently he has made some revisions. The one he posted at Tnation was like this. Check the BBB 3 month challege:

Squat 531, DL BBB + Assistance
Bench 531, OHP BBB + Assistance
DL 531, Squat BBB + Asssitance
OHP 531, Bench BBB + Assistance

T NATION | The Boring But Big 3-Month Challenge

I started at 50% and instead of using a % and increasing the weight by 2.5kg, I just went up 5kg instead the first couple of times to be somewhere above 60%. As Wendler says best to start light and work up. Seems to be the mantra of the whole program. I also try to keep the rest down as much as possible and by the 4th set your feeling it.

Good article. I've beign forwarded the link before but never read it. Wendler is a fucking legend no doubt about it. Some of the young guys here could benefit from reading the bit about diet, fucking gotta eat to get strong.

Anyway back on topic benching....

 

[solarbear]

On 531 with the bbb my bench is going up nicely.

 

[bams_101]

That's the complex method - working several aspects of strength at the same time
The conjugate method is the act of rotating or changing up
Speed training has nothing to do with the conjugate method

xD

Sorry I havent been able to get on the computer for a while.

Its good to see you can use Google and find out the definitions as Verkoshansky see's them, but I am (we were) talking about Louie Simmons' conjugate method which "conjugates- to marry or couple" mulitple methods into one. The complex method and Conjugate SEQUENCE method are both involved in WBB periodisation. Complex method is ME,DE and RE work and Sequence is used to rotate the exercises as often as necessary to avoid accommodation.

On another note, it's also good to see that you had responses for all the other things I brought up in the last post.............

 

[jaymax]

Just be careful with this mate, it's an awesome exercises but few people can do it full ROM without causing problems either now or later down the track. Stopping at the top of the head would be considere "safe" ROM for everyone.


I bench twice a week following the basic Westside template. Ive seen a few people on here that don't agree with speed benching, or benching with bands saying that it doesnt carry over for the RAW lifter but haven't been able to find how or if they've even trained that way. For all I know they couldve been using the wrong percentages for them personally or for a raw lifter in general.

As far as I see it, I train one heavy day focusing on increasing absolute strength and one day working technique and speed-strength. Think of it this way, to change or engrain a motor pattern/technique it's said to take 1000 repetitions. Benching 5x5 twice a week gives you a total of 50 reps. The quality of those reps begin to diminish as fatique sets in. So you'll get maybe 10-12 QUALITY reps a week. Not a whole lot if you're trying to keep your back tight, tuck properly, tear the bar apart etc.

So especially in the case of beginners like EL Freako said, technique and strength are both a big part of the equation.

Sorry to jump in here and post in response to an old post but here I go.

First, the point you're trying to make about the 5x5 is a pretty terrible one. How you arrived at 10-12 "quality" reps with doing 5x5 twice a week is beyond me. Fatigue doesn't set in that quickly and I'd argue you get 3-4 quality reps per set...especially in the first sets. Maybe only 3 on the last one. Either way I'd say a minimum of 15 quality reps per session, 30 total for the week. I assume you are using speed as the criteria for quality in your example here. I think it's noteworthy that even in prilepin's table the recommended rep range for a 70% load before speed and therefore quality diminishes too greatly is 3-6. So if you're looking at a 5x5 with 70-80% I wouldn't say you're too far outside this range.

As a side note I'd also like to comment that if speed is your qualifier for quality or productive reps then a max effort day is therefore just as useless as the 5x5 per your example...even more so since you're so close to limit you don't even get a couple quality first reps before grinding.

As for speed benches, I've heard several debates on both sides as to their usefulness. I have done it for a few months continuously, using correct percentages which were also tested and qualified by bar speed. Do I think it helps? I have no idea. I was also doing a max effort day at the time and I was making slow but steady progress.

Question for everyone is how would you know it it worked unless you stopped doing max effort work altogether. Unless you were to assume that your max effort work wasn't making you stronger... For all most of us know it's effectiveness could simply lie in it's deloading effect from your heavy day to elicit recovery without detraining. I noticed no difference in gains when switching from DE work to repetition work on that day (3-4 sets of 10 with ~60%).

 

[jaymax]

I need help with my bench.

If my 1RM is ~80kg, should I do something like Ed coans program, one heavy day, one light. Or should I hit it 2 times a week heavier?

I respond better to higher volume I think, I never get anywhere on the 5 x 5 stuff.

Alpha,
do NOT start screwing around with Smolov or any other such complicated programming. I'd also not recommend Westside at your strength level either. You need to build a strength base with decent volume work. And you are probably correct in your assessment about higher volume...if intensity is the amperage then volume is the voltage in terms of training stimulus.

As Bill Starr once put so eloquently and simply: "If a lift isn't going up you need to work it less or work it more". More volume, more intensity, less volume, less intensity...change one of those factors to make progress. Pretty simple when you're beginner-intermediate. Advanced is where it gets complicated!

Do yourself a favor and keep with the 5x5. Not the one top set of 5 method, 5x5 sets across, same weight. You could try 5x5 same weight once a week, and 5x5 ramping up (we'll call this 1x5 as it's actually 1 set at working weight). See how you deal with it. If you are recovering easily from that but think you need more volume, 5x5 twice a week and see if you recover.

Don't get mired down in thinking/focusing on close grips, board presses, floor presses or any of that crap until you are benching 300lbs raw for sure. It will only over-complicate things unnecessarily. Forgot bands, chains and circa-max cycles exist. Do tricep and shoulder work sure, but don't place too much emphasis on it. If someone asked you how to get better at running would anyone tell them "by doing anything but actually running"? I doubt it.

If you want more advice, feel free to PM me. I'm no powerlifter or Louie but I bench 405 raw.

 

[jaymax]

Sorry I havent been able to get on the computer for a while.

Its good to see you can use Google and find out the definitions as Verkoshansky see's them, but I am (we were) talking about Louie Simmons' conjugate method which "conjugates- to marry or couple" mulitple methods into one. The complex method and Conjugate SEQUENCE method are both involved in WBB periodisation. Complex method is ME,DE and RE work and Sequence is used to rotate the exercises as often as necessary to avoid accommodation.

On another note, it's also good to see that you had responses for all the other things I brought up in the last post.............

I believe he was responding in reference to your post stating "As a whole, Conjugated Periodisation (westside programmimg), did not take into account for the development of geared lifting many years after it was originally thought up by the Dynamo Club. "

We should stop throwing conjugations around and instead refer to Westside's "Current" method as westside programming. As I'm sure we all know the Dynamo Club did not do speed work. They rotating special max effort exercises only. Maybe these fancy terms sound smart but it just makes for useless, pissy debate.

I think it's noteworthy also that the DE day evolved mainly on the basis of not being able to recover from two max effort days per week. What westside used to do on that day was repetition work following prilepin's table:
Week 1: 70% x 8x3
Week 2: 75% x 8x3
Week 3: 80% x 6x3
Week 4: 85% x 5x2
Week 5: 80%x2, 85%x2, 90%x2
Week 6: Max or start over

So the arguments over what is or is no longer westside and who is/isn't doing it is a very stupid one. As Oni said, to get really pedantic over it the only ones who truly train Westside were Bill West and the rest of the original crew and those strictly following their template which, btw, also changed over time.

I will admit it's very uncool of me to come in and comment on old posts, but you did outright insult Oni and many others in this forum about not having thoughts/ideas of their own. On that point, I wonder if you yourself do? Or are you, like so many others, simply sucking at the teet of simmons for the sake of "training westside". Why these dogmatic affiliations are so important to people, I'll never understand.

Even Simmons himself simply copied and combined what the russians and original westside guys were doing. Also, a bit off-topic, it was Bill Seno who got Louie's bench from 340-480 raw by telling him to bench wide for heavy 6's, 8's and 10's. Hardly a fancy ME/DE/RE or super-conjugalated approach. Might there be a lesson there somewhere?

 

[The Hamburgler]

Fwiw Travis Bell has gone from 365 to over 565 unequipped since he moved to Westside training for equipped comps so clearly the ME/DE can work for unequipped guys

And they still rotate in higher rep extra wide or close grip bench on both days as a main or assistance lift

 

[jaymax]

Fwiw Travis Bell has gone from 365 to over 565 unequipped since he moved to Westside training for equipped comps so clearly the ME/DE can work for unequipped guys

And they still rotate in higher rep extra wide or close grip bench on both days as a main or assistance lift

Yes I am aware....got that from the man himself. And rep work is a HUGE part of their template...one might say moreso than the ME or DE aspect which I think is an oft overlooked thing about Westside. There is a ton of volume work on lots of accessory exercises and low intensities. As the russian once said about the original westside, it's as much bodybuilding as it is weightlifting.

Don't get me wrong Graham I am NOT arguing against DE work or saying it won't work for a raw lifter. Honestly I am not qualified to make such an assessment in any way. I'm simply responding to what turned into a rather pissy argument on the topic and questioning whether those who use the template like gospel have any way of knowing the benefit of DE vs RE work on the light day.

Btw, if they do great! I'm still looking to learn. That's the issue with dogma...it stops learning dead in it's tracks!

 

[perceive]

BBB is main lift or derivative for 5*10. 5*10 bench or incline would be BBB on bech day. Unless Wendler has revised his book? I would think BBB assistance for bench would typicallly be 5*10 some sort of bench, 5*10 dips or some other supplemantry lift.

Answering an old post..
Wendler released a v2.0 of his book late last year with a whole bunch of revised programs from beginners onwards with more info from what I could see on warm ups etc as well

 

[bams_101]

Sorry to jump in here and post in response to an old post but here I go.

First, the point you're trying to make about the 5x5 is a pretty terrible one. How you arrived at 10-12 "quality" reps with doing 5x5 twice a week is beyond me. Fatigue doesn't set in that quickly and I'd argue you get 3-4 quality reps per set...especially in the first sets. Maybe only 3 on the last one. Either way I'd say a minimum of 15 quality reps per session, 30 total for the week. I assume you are using speed as the criteria for quality in your example here. I think it's noteworthy that even in prilepin's table the recommended rep range for a 70% load before speed and therefore quality diminishes too greatly is 3-6. So if you're looking at a 5x5 with 70-80% I wouldn't say you're too far outside this range.

As a side note I'd also like to comment that if speed is your qualifier for quality or productive reps then a max effort day is therefore just as useless as the 5x5 per your example...even more so since you're so close to limit you don't even get a couple quality first reps before grinding.

Hi, jaymax, nothin wrong with posting on old threads. Firstly I'd just like to say the comment you quoted was directed towards beginners not intermediate or advanced lifters. Also it was supposed to be 10-20 reps a week saying that the first 1-2 reps of each set would be "quality" reps, qualified by more than just the speed factor. I believe Dave Tate was the first person I heard say this for beginner lifters, going on to say 10+ sets of 2-3 reps would be more efficient for learning a movement because the set is short and every rep looking the same. You're example of ~30 out of the 50 reps being quality reps still only yields 60%.

Prilepin's chart was designed from what he found in weightlifting, then Louie adopted it for Powerlifting and changed a few things because of the differences between the two sports. So again not for beginners.

If we were talking about lifters with more experience I'd be agreeing with everything you said =)

As for speed benches, I've heard several debates on both sides as to their usefulness. I have done it for a few months continuously, using correct percentages which were also tested and qualified by bar speed. Do I think it helps? I have no idea. I was also doing a max effort day at the time and I was making slow but steady progress.

Question for everyone is how would you know it it worked unless you stopped doing max effort work altogether. Unless you were to assume that your max effort work wasn't making you stronger... For all most of us know it's effectiveness could simply lie in it's deloading effect from your heavy day to elicit recovery without detraining. I noticed no difference in gains when switching from DE work to repetition work on that day (3-4 sets of 10 with ~60%).

Thats cool man, I like it when I hear people trying DE work. Did you use chains or bands?

With the DE vs rep (RE) work, why does it have to be one or the other? Why not do 6-8x3 for speed bench with a few different grips and then do some rep work as a secondary barbell movement; 3x5 with your worst grip for example.

 

[bams_101]

I believe he was responding in reference to your post stating "As a whole, Conjugated Periodisation (westside programmimg), did not take into account for the development of geared lifting many years after it was originally thought up by the Dynamo Club. "

We should stop throwing conjugations around and instead refer to Westside's "Current" method as westside programming. As I'm sure we all know the Dynamo Club did not do speed work. They rotating special max effort exercises only. Maybe these fancy terms sound smart but it just makes for useless, pissy debate.

I think it's noteworthy also that the DE day evolved mainly on the basis of not being able to recover from two max effort days per week. What westside used to do on that day was repetition work following prilepin's table:
Week 1: 70% x 8x3
Week 2: 75% x 8x3
Week 3: 80% x 6x3
Week 4: 85% x 5x2
Week 5: 80%x2, 85%x2, 90%x2
Week 6: Max or start over

So the arguments over what is or is no longer westside and who is/isn't doing it is a very stupid one. As Oni said, to get really pedantic over it the only ones who truly train Westside were Bill West and the rest of the original crew and those strictly following their template which, btw, also changed over time.

I will admit it's very uncool of me to come in and comment on old posts, but you did outright insult Oni and many others in this forum about not having thoughts/ideas of their own. On that point, I wonder if you yourself do? Or are you, like so many others, simply sucking at the teet of simmons for the sake of "training westside". Why these dogmatic affiliations are so important to people, I'll never understand.

Even Simmons himself simply copied and combined what the russians and original westside guys were doing. Also, a bit off-topic, it was Bill Seno who got Louie's bench from 340-480 raw by telling him to bench wide for heavy 6's, 8's and 10's. Hardly a fancy ME/DE/RE or super-conjugalated approach. Might there be a lesson there somewhere?

Yeah I agree the whole what is/isn't "Westside" is pointless and let's leave it at that.

As for sucking at the teet of Simmons, I first read of ME/DE/RE work in Zatsiorsky's book "Science and Practice of Strength Training" then went looking for more info on the subject and most roads in that area lead to Louie. I do not follow it like doctrine like some mindless douche, but I do feel that many of the principles have merit.

I'm sorry but who are the "many others" that I insulted? Yeah I replied to some things that Oni said with an appropriate response but who are you to get annoyed by something I said to him? When Oni didn't respond himself and when the newbie with 10 posts comes straight to this thread? Like I said nothing wrong with posting on old threads but why this one?

 

[jj80]

This thread is funny.

I've ran a modified smolov jnr and Coan for bench.

I got my best gains from smolov, but it's not a sustainable program. Maybe something you'd bring out once or twice a year.

Coan I like a lot, it's what I base all my lifting around at the moment, and should see me PR everything at this comp on Sunday.

If you bench less than 115-120, just stick to Coan type progressions and you will be fine.
Make sure you have a good set up, and smash your back work.

Not sure if I should get into the whole technique thing again......

How did you modify it?

Do you recommend taking 90% of your 1rm? What weekly weight increases do you put into the calculator?

Did you cut out military presses and pull ups while you did smolov, or just continue as per usual?

Interested in other peoples responses to these questions if they've done Smolov with success... I'm probably going to start it next week for my bench which is 120 paused currently.

If I put in 108kg (90% of 120) into Smolov Jr. Calculator with 2.5kg weekly increases my final week is 10 triples at 95kg which almost looks too easy.