bench programming

[0ni]

Is your BTN press strict? What grip width do you use?
I know this is focusing on the minor details but it's always interdasting to see

 

[Bazza20]

Is your BTN press strict? What grip width do you use?
I know this is focusing on the minor details but it's always interdasting to see

Yep strict. BTN press is my favorite upper body lift now. Close grip just outside shoulder width.

 

[0ni]

I've been doing those Klokov presses. It's basically a snatch grip strict BTN press. There is a video of klokov doing 110kg for an easy triple lol. My best is like 30kg and it feels like my neck is about to explode. I imagine that if you got really good at them, you'd see improvement in everything, simply because they are such a damn hard lift

 

[bams_101]

Yep strict. BTN press is my favorite upper body lift now. Close grip just outside shoulder width.

Just be careful with this mate, it's an awesome exercises but few people can do it full ROM without causing problems either now or later down the track. Stopping at the top of the head would be considere "safe" ROM for everyone.


I bench twice a week following the basic Westside template. Ive seen a few people on here that don't agree with speed benching, or benching with bands saying that it doesnt carry over for the RAW lifter but haven't been able to find how or if they've even trained that way. For all I know they couldve been using the wrong percentages for them personally or for a raw lifter in general.

As far as I see it, I train one heavy day focusing on increasing absolute strength and one day working technique and speed-strength. Think of it this way, to change or engrain a motor pattern/technique it's said to take 1000 repetitions. Benching 5x5 twice a week gives you a total of 50 reps. The quality of those reps begin to diminish as fatique sets in. So you'll get maybe 10-12 QUALITY reps a week. Not a whole lot if you're trying to keep your back tight, tuck properly, tear the bar apart etc.

So especially in the case of beginners like EL Freako said, technique and strength are both a big part of the equation.

 

[Bazza20]

I've been doing those Klokov presses. It's basically a snatch grip strict BTN press. There is a video of klokov doing 110kg for an easy triple lol. My best is like 30kg and it feels like my neck is about to explode. I imagine that if you got really good at them, you'd see improvement in everything, simply because they are such a damn hard lift

Yep saw that video a while ago. I've given them a go once or twice but nothing serious yet. They are tough.

 

[0ni]

Regarding speed bench - I just think that doing reps would work better for a raw bencher
Doing 10x3x60% is not the only way to increase speed-strength. One look at the videos of Sheiko's lifters will show you this

IIRC, Ryan Kennelly will start his bench workout with a shit load of reps (and the bar moves FAST) working up to 405lb for 20 reps raw (yeah) and will then max out his raw bench before going to shirted board presses and finishing with arms + back. I didn't see any speed benching at all in his "Road to the Arnold" video, just lots of rep work with the bar moving astonishingly fast

I think the practising form obviously holds merit but for a raw bencher I just don't see speed bench having a significant carry over to your 1RM. I think Chad Wesley-Smith has openly said speed work is pointless for a raw lifter (he definitely said it about box squats)

 

[Bazza20]

Just be careful with this mate, it's an awesome exercises but few people can do it full ROM without causing problems either now or later down the track. Stopping at the top of the head would be considere "safe" ROM for everyone.

Yep everyone says that but I doubt many of them have actually done the exercise for any length of time. Doing BTN presses are easier on my shoulders than any benching and my shoulders feel better after doing them. Sure some people will have problems with them, like any exercise, but I don't see how they are anywhere near as dangerous as people think. I would guess low bar squats and bench cause as many or more problems for people's shoulders as BTN presses.

Doing them to the top of the head would be pretty pointless in my opion.

 

[0ni]

Yep everyone says that but I doubt many of them have actually done the exercise for any length of time. Doing BTN presses are easier on my shoulders than any benching and my shoulders feel better after doing them. Sure some people will have problems with them, like any exercise, but I don't see how they are anywhere near as dangerous as people think. I would guess low bar squats and bench cause as many or more problems for people's shoulders as BTN presses.

Doing them to the top of the head would be pretty pointless in my opion.

They cause injuries because most people's anterior are tighter than a 12 year old's arse
I find they keep my shoulders healthy and promote mobility

 

[bams_101]

Regarding speed bench - I just think that doing reps would work better for a raw bencher
Doing 10x3x60% is not the only way to increase speed-strength. One look at the videos of Sheiko's lifters will show you this

IIRC, Ryan Kennelly will start his bench workout with a shit load of reps (and the bar moves FAST) working up to 405lb for 20 reps raw (yeah) and will then max out his raw bench before going to shirted board presses and finishing with arms + back. I didn't see any speed benching at all in his "Road to the Arnold" video, just lots of rep work with the bar moving astonishingly fast

I think the practising form obviously holds merit but for a raw bencher I just don't see speed bench having a significant carry over to your 1RM. I think Chad Wesley-Smith has openly said speed work is pointless for a raw lifter (he definitely said it about box squats)

I never said its the only way, its just one of many. But when comparing to other bench specialist programs like Sheiko and Smolov Jr your not devoting most of your training time to bench. Speed-Strength is moving sub-maximal weights with maximal velocity and speed bench fits this description. Have you ever done speed work? Saying "I think" its better has no merit.

I love it when people bring up Kennelly for speed benching because hes a proponent of it for raw benchers. Ive got a link to an interview that I cant find right now but he says "1 heavy day and 1 speed day with 8x3 @60%". Paraprased but still. Also "Road to the Arnold" if Im not mistaken was contest prep, not 100 on that, but the type of training can be different leading to contest. But then look at Dave Hoff with a 945lb bench, he does speed bench. But I do remember watching that 405 x 20, fuck that was beast.

Now Chad Wesley-Smith is doing well with his Juggernaut method but openly saying something doesnt make it true. Box squats can definitely ruin form if the the lifter doesnt keep up his raw squatting technique. The two are completely different lifts.

 

[rino60]

Yep saw that video a while ago. I've given them a go once or twice but nothing serious yet. They are tough.

Man, they are great. I've been doing them a bit lately on delts day - huge fun. I'm really only pressing like 40kg when doing them, but they work my rear and side delts like nobodies business.

I get absolutely no (short term) ill effects from BTN Pressing (keep in mind I've only ever done BTN standing or on a smith - never seated). For a solid few months though, my routine was DB/BB/Smith Presses to the front, side lateral raises then BTN presses on a smith.

 

[bams_101]

Yep everyone says that but I doubt many of them have actually done the exercise for any length of time. Doing BTN presses are easier on my shoulders than any benching and my shoulders feel better after doing them. Sure some people will have problems with them, like any exercise, but I don't see how they are anywhere near as dangerous as people think. I would guess low bar squats and bench cause as many or more problems for people's shoulders as BTN presses.

Doing them to the top of the head would be pretty pointless in my opion.

I'm certainly not saying dont do it man, I agree with you that its an excellent exercise and if it's working then by all means keep at it. All Im saying is take care with it. Low bar squats and bench do cause problems but mostly due to incorrect technique, the problems with BTN presses and pulldowns come from structure issues from the shape of acromion that cannot be changed.

Doing them to the top of the head with a Snatch grip like Klokov would be pointless to go the top of the head, but you said you were doing a closer grip so the top of the head/ear is a decent ROM and only losing about 10-15cm.

I personally dont do them, i choose other exercises that have a better risk/benefit ratio. But thats just me.

 

[0ni]

I never said its the only way, its just one of many. But when comparing to other bench specialist programs like Sheiko and Smolov Jr your not devoting most of your training time to bench. Speed-Strength is moving sub-maximal weights with maximal velocity and speed bench fits this description. Have you ever done speed work? Saying "I think" its better has no merit.

I love it when people bring up Kennelly for speed benching because hes a proponent of it for raw benchers. Ive got a link to an interview that I cant find right now but he says "1 heavy day and 1 speed day with 8x3 @60%". Paraprased but still. Also "Road to the Arnold" if Im not mistaken was contest prep, not 100 on that, but the type of training can be different leading to contest. But then look at Dave Hoff with a 945lb bench, he does speed bench. But I do remember watching that 405 x 20, fuck that was beast.

Now Chad Wesley-Smith is doing well with his Juggernaut method but openly saying something doesnt make it true. Box squats can definitely ruin form if the the lifter doesnt keep up his raw squatting technique. The two are completely different lifts.

Sheiko isn't a bench specialist program. I was just commenting on what I have seen. Kennelly is a geared bencher and I was talking about the benefits of speed benching for a raw bencher and used Kennelly as an example of someone who did very little speed benching and don't know the ins and outs of his training, just that I didn't see any speed benching in his videos, only reps. I'd like to see that interview if you can find it

Also for the record, when talking about "speed bench" I am referring to westside style speed benching where you do something like 10x3x60%. As I said before there are lots of different ways to increase speed-strength other than speed benching but I don't think increasing speed-strength is all that important for the raw lifter and that most people would get better use out of doing reps on their lighter day (if they follow westside template just as an example) to get better at grinding out a weight. Defranco also thinks this way regarding speed bench, although he is a big fan of box squatting but I suspect that is because it makes them faster in their sports rather than their squatting specifically

 

[bams_101]

Sheiko isn't a bench specialist program. I was just commenting on what I have seen. Kennelly is a geared bencher and I was talking about the benefits of speed benching for a raw bencher and used Kennelly as an example of someone who did very little speed benching and don't know the ins and outs of his training, just that I didn't see any speed benching in his videos, only reps. I'd like to see that interview if you can find it

Also for the record, when talking about "speed bench" I am referring to westside style speed benching where you do something like 10x3x60%. As I said before there are lots of different ways to increase speed-strength other than speed benching but I don't think increasing speed-strength is all that important for the raw lifter and that most people would get better use out of doing reps on their lighter day (if they follow westside template just as an example) to get better at grinding out a weight. Defranco also thinks this way regarding speed bench, although he is a big fan of box squatting but I suspect that is because it makes them faster in their sports rather than their squatting specifically

Sorry your right, Sheiko is not a Bench specialist program but I it would be classed as a specialist program as a whole. Now you're commenting on what you have ACTUALLY seen or experienced in person or commemnting on stuff said in forums??

As a whole, Conjugated Periodisation (westside programmimg), did not take into account for the development of geared lifting many years after it was originally thought up by the Dynamo Club.

If you don't know the in's and out of something why are you referencing it? Because you saw a video? And then using a geared lifter to reference raw lifting doesnt make sense.

For the record, I know what you mean by speed benching. Again you "think" speed strength isnt important, how have you come to this conclusion? Yes in the Westside template you could call it a "lighter" day, but it is still very challenging to put 100% effort into sub max weights. Max effort work is there to increase the ability to grind against weights 90% and above, thats what it is. So adding rep work as main work changes it and it is no longer Westside anymore. Its WS4SB by Joe Defranco. Now Joe Defranco took the Conjugate Method (Consisting of the Max effort, Dynamic Effort and Repeated Effort Methods) and shaped it to his own needs when training athletes. Athletes are not lifters and only doing what they need to do to be better at their sport. Thus why the DE Lower day is still in the mix, but with bodyweight movements for the most part.

 

[Brick]

Man, they are great. I've been doing them a bit lately on delts day - huge fun. I'm really only pressing like 40kg when doing them, but they work my rear and side delts like nobodies business.

I get absolutely no (short term) ill effects from BTN Pressing (keep in mind I've only ever done BTN standing or on a smith - never seated). For a solid few months though, my routine was DB/BB/Smith Presses to the front, side lateral raises then BTN presses on a smith.

I like you Rian I really do but if you mention smith machines in this thread again I am going to have to ask you to leave.

I liken the smith machine to a porno yeah its interesting, but no matter how many times you watch it it's still not the same as fucking.

 

[rino60]

I like you Rian I really do but if you mention smith machines in this thread again I am going to have to ask you to leave.

I liken the smith machine to a porno yeah its interesting, but no matter how many times you watch it it's still not the same as fucking.

Haha, thanks man - I was simply going off topic and talking about my lack of problems with BTN pressing.

But totally, smith bench presses will increase your bench press by 500% over a number of weeks.

 

[0ni]

Sorry your right, Sheiko is not a Bench specialist program but I it would be classed as a specialist program as a whole. Now you're commenting on what you have ACTUALLY seen or experienced in person or commemnting on stuff said in forums??

As a whole, Conjugated Periodisation (westside programmimg), did not take into account for the development of geared lifting many years after it was originally thought up by the Dynamo Club.

If you don't know the in's and out of something why are you referencing it? Because you saw a video? And then using a geared lifter to reference raw lifting doesnt make sense.

For the record, I know what you mean by speed benching. Again you "think" speed strength isnt important, how have you come to this conclusion? Yes in the Westside template you could call it a "lighter" day, but it is still very challenging to put 100% effort into sub max weights. Max effort work is there to increase the ability to grind against weights 90% and above, thats what it is. So adding rep work as main work changes it and it is no longer Westside anymore. Its WS4SB by Joe Defranco. Now Joe Defranco took the Conjugate Method (Consisting of the Max effort, Dynamic Effort and Repeated Effort Methods) and shaped it to his own needs when training athletes. Athletes are not lifters and only doing what they need to do to be better at their sport. Thus why the DE Lower day is still in the mix, but with bodyweight movements for the most part.

You're right, we should never look to successful people and at what they are doing, figure everything out for ourselves but certainly never think

 

[solarbear]

While the leg and back program of my old football training program (from when I was in Uni) was pretty bad. The bench program was pretty awesome.

Basically, 2x per week you did Bench, Incline and Military Press. In sort of a heavy/light fashion. On Day 1 you did 3 sets of each. On the 2nd day you only did the 2 light sets.

Mass Cycle 65, 70 and 75% x 10
Strength Cycle 75, 80, 85% x 5

Basically, your week would look like this
Day 1 Heavy Upper
Day 2 Heavy Lower
Off
Day 3 Light Upper
Day 4 Light Lower
Off
Off

Cycles started at 2 weeks of each phase , then 3, then 4... then start over.

This proved to be very effective for both the beginning and intermediate lifters on the team.

Once I got used to it. And the first week 75%x10 was pretty humbling. You would pick one exercise a week and test for a max on the light days, using a chart, or going for a 1RM if you wanted to.

Problem with the program was there was not enough back or leg work, but the bench part of it was awesomesauce.

A good mix might be
Bench, Incline, Military + Rows 50 reps + Face Pulls 100 reps

You could also just underestimate your maxes and move them up 2.5kg a cycle without testing.

6 months of running it saw me gain about 30kg on my bench. I was NOT a beginner at bench, I think I tested 100kg x 14 as a rookie (100kg for reps was pretty much the gridiron test of strength). By my second year I was a monster at the benchpress.

 

[bams_101]

You're right, we should never look to successful people and at what they are doing, figure everything out for ourselves but certainly never think

Great response bro, way to avoid all that I mentioned and make some complete bullshit up that has nothing to do with what I said.

 

[Darkoz]

Great response bro, way to avoid all that I mentioned and make some complete bullshit up that has nothing to do with what I said.

He's good at that, really good.

 

[nazzysmith]

Oni wan Kenobi strikes again....

Thanks for the input bams101...