Beginners program

[Kyle Aaron]

Until you get your strength to a decent level, it doesn't matter much. If you are benching 60kg, squatting 80kg and deadlifting 100kg - or only benching and not doing those other exercises - it doesn't really matter if you're doing 5x5 or 3x10 or 10x1 or whatever.

Build the foundation of strength, which then prepares your body for moving on in the direction you want to - towards more strength, getting "ripped", being a better footballer, or whatever.

The 100kg powerlifter will lift heavier than the 100kg bodybuilder. But the 100kg bodybuilder will lift more than almost anyone in a mainstream gym, because almost all of them are "beginners".

You are a beginner if you cant bench 100kg, squat 140kg and deadlift 180kg

Other standards exist. But let's take those for the sake of argument. Until you can do that you're a "beginner", and whether you do this or that rep range isn't important, only that you pick a decent programme and stick to it until you reach decent lifts.

Build the foundations before worrying about the paint scheme.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

Until you get your strength to a decent level, it doesn't matter much. If you are benching 60kg, squatting 80kg and deadlifting 100kg - or only benching and not doing those other exercises - it doesn't really matter if you're doing 5x5 or 3x10 or 10x1 or whatever.

Build the foundation of strength, which then prepares your body for moving on in the direction you want to - towards more strength, getting "ripped", being a better footballer, or whatever.

The 100kg powerlifter will lift heavier than the 100kg bodybuilder. But the 100kg bodybuilder will lift more than almost anyone in a mainstream gym, because almost all of them are "beginners".

You are a beginner if you cant bench 100kg, squat 140kg and deadlift 180kg

Other standards exist. But let's take those for the sake of argument. Until you can do that you're a "beginner", and whether you do this or that rep range isn't important, only that you pick a decent programme and stick to it until you reach decent lifts.

Build the foundations before worrying about the paint scheme.

 

[User Name]

Some would argue it is all dependant on your goals - unless you are a Powerlifter, you may not need to bench, deadlift or squat at all. If bodybuilding is your goal, other exercises may be used to achieve the same results of better than those lifts. To say you are a beginner if you can't bench / squat / dead X amount is a big call imo. I know a BB who does not believe in squating or deadlifting, and only uses DB's for bench, but he certainly is no beginner.

 

[User Name]

Some would argue it is all dependant on your goals - unless you are a Powerlifter, you may not need to bench, deadlift or squat at all. If bodybuilding is your goal, other exercises may be used to achieve the same results of better than those lifts. To say you are a beginner if you can't bench / squat / dead X amount is a big call imo. I know a BB who does not believe in squating or deadlifting, and only uses DB's for bench, but he certainly is no beginner.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

How successful a bodybuilder is he? Name him for us. Let's judge how good his approach is by his results. I'll be interested in seeing the legs built by... if not squats and deadlifts, what?

Also, if he is a successful bodybuilder today, what did he do to get there? Did he begin with dumbell bench press and no deadlifting or squats? What did he use for his foundation?

I have never heard of a successful bodybuilder who could not at least bench their bodyweight, squat 1.5 times their bodyweight, deadlift 1.75 times, and so on. If you have, please tell us about them, and educate us.

Some may prefer to lunge rather than squat, dumbells rather than bench press, and so on. But the basic foundation of strength remains the same.

This basic strength training is to physical activities (whether bodybuilder, sports, whatevever) like basic literacy and numeracy is to most modern professions. Not everyone needs to know calculus or poetry, but everyone needs to be able to spell, read without moving their lips, and do long division. Some people think they don't need those things for their professions. You will find those are the people who are not very successful in their professions.

If you know of a successful bodybuilder who would not also be the strongest person in 99% of mainstream gyms, I would be interested to hear of them.

Strength and size are like two trunks from the same tree. They do diverge, but they begin together, and are quite close for a lot of their growth.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

How successful a bodybuilder is he? Name him for us. Let's judge how good his approach is by his results. I'll be interested in seeing the legs built by... if not squats and deadlifts, what?

Also, if he is a successful bodybuilder today, what did he do to get there? Did he begin with dumbell bench press and no deadlifting or squats? What did he use for his foundation?

I have never heard of a successful bodybuilder who could not at least bench their bodyweight, squat 1.5 times their bodyweight, deadlift 1.75 times, and so on. If you have, please tell us about them, and educate us.

Some may prefer to lunge rather than squat, dumbells rather than bench press, and so on. But the basic foundation of strength remains the same.

This basic strength training is to physical activities (whether bodybuilder, sports, whatevever) like basic literacy and numeracy is to most modern professions. Not everyone needs to know calculus or poetry, but everyone needs to be able to spell, read without moving their lips, and do long division. Some people think they don't need those things for their professions. You will find those are the people who are not very successful in their professions.

If you know of a successful bodybuilder who would not also be the strongest person in 99% of mainstream gyms, I would be interested to hear of them.

Strength and size are like two trunks from the same tree. They do diverge, but they begin together, and are quite close for a lot of their growth.

 

[Fadi]

Some would argue it is all dependant on your goals - unless you are a Powerlifter, you may not need to bench, deadlift or squat at all. If bodybuilding is your goal, other exercises may be used to achieve the same results of better than those lifts. To say you are a beginner if you can't bench / squat / dead X amount is a big call imo. I know a BB who does not believe in squating or deadlifting, and only uses DB's for bench, but he certainly is no beginner.

And I would agree with you Sir. It's all goal relative. So if we sit and analise the goal of a bodybuilder, we'd obviously find it to differ from that of a mainly strength/power oriented athlete such as an Olympic weightlifter or a powerlifter. When we analise further, we'd be able to narrow it right down to what that particular athlete really needs to achieve maximum results in the shortest time possible.

As for the BB whom you've mentioned, that is one individual case that needs to be looked at before one begins to generalise that bodybuilders do not need squats or whatever that particular bodybuilder does not believe in. If that BB can show the masses that there is a more effective way of building the quadriceps muscles other than with squats; then by all means provide it and let us examine it. You see, when you say the two magical words of I believe this or I don't believe in that; then it becomes more personal for that individual BB.

I agree, there are many exercises that would build massive legs and granted; none are called squats. I see your point.


Fadi

 

[Fadi]

Some would argue it is all dependant on your goals - unless you are a Powerlifter, you may not need to bench, deadlift or squat at all. If bodybuilding is your goal, other exercises may be used to achieve the same results of better than those lifts. To say you are a beginner if you can't bench / squat / dead X amount is a big call imo. I know a BB who does not believe in squating or deadlifting, and only uses DB's for bench, but he certainly is no beginner.

And I would agree with you Sir. It's all goal relative. So if we sit and analise the goal of a bodybuilder, we'd obviously find it to differ from that of a mainly strength/power oriented athlete such as an Olympic weightlifter or a powerlifter. When we analise further, we'd be able to narrow it right down to what that particular athlete really needs to achieve maximum results in the shortest time possible.

As for the BB whom you've mentioned, that is one individual case that needs to be looked at before one begins to generalise that bodybuilders do not need squats or whatever that particular bodybuilder does not believe in. If that BB can show the masses that there is a more effective way of building the quadriceps muscles other than with squats; then by all means provide it and let us examine it. You see, when you say the two magical words of I believe this or I don't believe in that; then it becomes more personal for that individual BB.

I agree, there are many exercises that would build massive legs and granted; none are called squats. I see your point.


Fadi

 

[eaglebay]

I came here thinking exactly the same, "I dont want to look like an olympic lifter" etc. I quickly learnt that to get big you have to get strong, best way to do that is through compound exercises imo, whats the point in isolating a muscle when everything around it is weak?

Give this newsletter a read, it may provide some more answers for you as it did for me. There are plenty more like this
http://www.ptcfrankston.com/doc/newsletter/PTC_Newsletter_IssueNo39.html

 

[eaglebay]

I came here thinking exactly the same, "I dont want to look like an olympic lifter" etc. I quickly learnt that to get big you have to get strong, best way to do that is through compound exercises imo, whats the point in isolating a muscle when everything around it is weak?

Give this newsletter a read, it may provide some more answers for you as it did for me. There are plenty more like this
http://www.ptcfrankston.com/doc/newsletter/PTC_Newsletter_IssueNo39.html

 

[User Name]

Hey Kyle - The bodybuilder I know is no-one famous, my point is he is far from a beginner and has built a competitive physique without squatting as part of his routine. Whether he could perform those percentages of his bodyweight, I don't know, probably he doesn't either, he doesn't care because his goal is size not percentages of his bodyweight.

Hey Fadi - I agree with you 100%. He does what works for him, does not advocate it for anyone else. For the record, I like the big lifts, I also acknowledge they are not essential for anyone other than a powerlifter, but may be the fastest path to success for other focus' regardless.

My original point was the author of this thread appeared to be recommending hypertrophy oriented rep ranges in the big lifts for strength oriented goals. These lifts are one path to size, but not essential for successful hypertrophy, and those rep ranges may not be optimum for strength.

Thanks eaglebay - will give it a read.

 

[User Name]

Hey Kyle - The bodybuilder I know is no-one famous, my point is he is far from a beginner and has built a competitive physique without squatting as part of his routine. Whether he could perform those percentages of his bodyweight, I don't know, probably he doesn't either, he doesn't care because his goal is size not percentages of his bodyweight.

Hey Fadi - I agree with you 100%. He does what works for him, does not advocate it for anyone else. For the record, I like the big lifts, I also acknowledge they are not essential for anyone other than a powerlifter, but may be the fastest path to success for other focus' regardless.

My original point was the author of this thread appeared to be recommending hypertrophy oriented rep ranges in the big lifts for strength oriented goals. These lifts are one path to size, but not essential for successful hypertrophy, and those rep ranges may not be optimum for strength.

Thanks eaglebay - will give it a read.

 

[PTC]

You know your posting in the strength/powerlifting section.

The cable crossover section is over there.

In the STRENGTH section, you are a beginner unless you can make those lifts, in the bodybuilder section I think you need to be able to apply tanning oil in 3.48sec to be classed as an expert.

Go and talk about tricep kickbacks in the other section.

 

[PTC]

You know your posting in the strength/powerlifting section.

The cable crossover section is over there.

In the STRENGTH section, you are a beginner unless you can make those lifts, in the bodybuilder section I think you need to be able to apply tanning oil in 3.48sec to be classed as an expert.

Go and talk about tricep kickbacks in the other section.

 

[User Name]

You know your posting in the strength/powerlifting section.

The cable crossover section is over there.

In the STRENGTH section, you are a beginner unless you can make those lifts, in the bodybuilder section I think you need to be able to apply tanning oil in 3.48sec to be classed as an expert.

Go and talk about tricep kickbacks in the other section.

While your attempt to belittle me is amusing, that is my point - you are advocating a program based around hypertrophy rep ranges as a strength gaining tool. I was after an explanation as to the reasons behind this, instead you have resorted to school yard retorts.

 

[User Name]

You know your posting in the strength/powerlifting section.

The cable crossover section is over there.

In the STRENGTH section, you are a beginner unless you can make those lifts, in the bodybuilder section I think you need to be able to apply tanning oil in 3.48sec to be classed as an expert.

Go and talk about tricep kickbacks in the other section.

While your attempt to belittle me is amusing, that is my point - you are advocating a program based around hypertrophy rep ranges as a strength gaining tool. I was after an explanation as to the reasons behind this, instead you have resorted to school yard retorts.

 

[PTC]

You are a strength novice until you can make those lifts.

Not too hard to understand.

You are reading and posting in the strength/powerlifting section, not the dancing in your undies section.

 

[PTC]

You are a strength novice until you can make those lifts.

Not too hard to understand.

You are reading and posting in the strength/powerlifting section, not the dancing in your undies section.

 

[User Name]

You are a strength novice until you can make those lifts.

Not too hard to understand.

You are reading and posting in the strength/powerlifting section, not the dancing in your undies section.

What IS hard for me to understand, and you appear to be continually avoiding my question with your witty put downs, is why you are advocating a program based around what is generally accepted to be hypertrophy rep scheme to achieve stength based goals?

Correct me if I am wrong, but accessory work is done in higher rep ranges but the big 3 lifts are generally trained in lower reps?

 

[User Name]

You are a strength novice until you can make those lifts.

Not too hard to understand.

You are reading and posting in the strength/powerlifting section, not the dancing in your undies section.

What IS hard for me to understand, and you appear to be continually avoiding my question with your witty put downs, is why you are advocating a program based around what is generally accepted to be hypertrophy rep scheme to achieve stength based goals?

Correct me if I am wrong, but accessory work is done in higher rep ranges but the big 3 lifts are generally trained in lower reps?