To the scientifically minded members on the forum, 9/11 15 years on...

[onslaught]

The internet has made stupid people dangerous and the easily led into an army of the blind who think only they can see.

 

[onslaught]

The twin towers were brought down by the Rand Corporation, in conjunction with the saucer people and under the supervision of the reverse vampires.

 

[Goosey]

I'd like to think I'm some beneficiarie of some hella funky alien dna code or some swizzle

 

[Puggy]

Trust me Fadi, I do not want to enter into online debates with anyone. I see you as a knowledgeable member and contributor of this forum, I have no quarrels about your point of view or religious persuasion. Those are your beliefs to have, and to do with as you wish. I certainly would never believe labeling someone defines who they're (eg. Muslim's as terrorists), I've been labelled my entire life and I have defied every label I've ever been given.

I think all arguments on all subjects require balance, and should be based on scientific evidence or substantiated evidence rather than speculation. It is this speculation that causes many of the problems in our society. Our entire parliament and media are constantly speculating, which then leads us to speculate about issues that we have not seen all the view points or evidence to. Unfortunately, our world is full of convoluted ideas.

As you can see from my points above, my life revolves around a very logical perspective, I don't totally deny the existence of a divine power but I see it as very unlikely. However, it would give me some comfort if I could blame all my misfortune on one single entity. I do however, see the benefit in a belief providing people hope, it's saved the lives of people I know, whether I think it is a good idea to be a part of an organised religion is another story.

And it is the same in my mind as it is in your mind brother. Please don't make up your mind about me like some others on here have, before even I come to my own conclusion re this terrorist event. I'm no different than you, we're 100% on the same page. Some people here can't see that, based on nothing more than the fact that I belong to the fold of Islam, as that somehow renders me guilty by default. You can give a person knowledge, but you can't make them think. Some people want to remain fools, only because the truth requires change Puggy.

We can discuss politics if you like, then you might see things from my point of view, based on a totally different narrative than the one you've been used to. No, I'm not suggesting you start discussing religion and politics with me (or anyone else on the forum Puggy), but if at any time you feel the need to ask a question regarding a certain matter, or why do Muslims (and Arabs in particular) say or behave in a certain way, then I'd be glad to share my knowledge with you. One thing I'm not is a Jehovah's Witness, knocking on peoples' doors hoping to save them from the abyss. Islam is not for sale neither does it need a Fadi or a million Fadis to introduce it to the world, it's a Deen that stands on its own foundation, and the only Deen left that is standing in the way of all the other isms out there. Like it or hate it, it's growing and spreading like no other way of life, all that despite all the negativity thrown at it. Based on just these few simple facts, one ought to ask why, why is that so? Like I said, I'm here if you ever feel the need to ask a question. Thank you for your time Sir.

 

[Fadi]

Trust me Fadi, I do not want to enter into online debates with anyone. I see you as a knowledgeable member and contributor of this forum, I have no quarrels about your point of view or religious persuasion. Those are your beliefs to have, and to do with as you wish. I certainly would never believe labeling someone defines who they're (eg. Muslim's as terrorists), I've been labelled my entire life and I have defied every label I've ever been given.

I think all arguments on all subjects require balance, and should be based on scientific evidence or substantiated evidence rather than speculation. It is this speculation that causes many of the problems in our society. Our entire parliament and media are constantly speculating, which then leads us to speculate about issues that we have not seen all the view points or evidence to. Unfortunately, our world is full of convoluted ideas.

As you can see from my points above, my life revolves around a very logical perspective, I don't totally deny the existence of a divine power but I see it as very unlikely. However, it would give me some comfort if I could blame all my misfortune on one single entity. I do however, see the benefit in a belief providing people hope, it's saved the lives of people I know, whether I think it is a good idea to be a part of an organised religion is another story.

Much respect to you Sir, and thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.

 

[Shrek]

Trust me Fadi, I do not want to enter into online debates with anyone. I see you as a knowledgeable member and contributor of this forum, I have no quarrels about your point of view or religious persuasion. Those are your beliefs to have, and to do with as you wish. I certainly would never believe labeling someone defines who they're (eg. Muslim's as terrorists), I've been labelled my entire life and I have defied every label I've ever been given.

I think all arguments on all subjects require balance, and should be based on scientific evidence or substantiated evidence rather than speculation. It is this speculation that causes many of the problems in our society. Our entire parliament and media are constantly speculating, which then leads us to speculate about issues that we have not seen all the view points or evidence to. Unfortunately, our world is full of convoluted ideas.

As you can see from my points above, my life revolves around a very logical perspective, I don't totally deny the existence of a divine power but I see it as very unlikely. However, it would give me some comfort if I could blame all my misfortune on one single entity. I do however, see the benefit in a belief providing people hope, it's saved the lives of people I know, whether I think it is a good idea to be a part of an organised religion is another story.

You certainly are a level headed young Kunce. ?

 

[Puggy]

Much respect to you Sir, and thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.

You certainly are a level headed young Kunce.

I try to be most of the time.

 

[WoodyAllen]

What if I told you the sky is blue only because you've been conditioned since birth to accept it as fact?

What is blue anyway?

The sky is not blue. It's cyan.

The sky is cyan, much of the time, as opposed to pink or green, because of light absorption and reflection. No object "has" colour, it's just what portion of the light spectrum that is reflected back. That's why a green shirt, or any other colour, will appear totally different under sodium vapour lights (the cheap crappy things you get in old factories or in some car parks) or your skin may look deeply tanned under some lights but not others.

It's not a matter of mental conditioning. It's physics. Yeah, science Mr White.

 

[Stiffy]

The sky is not blue. It's cyan.

The sky is cyan, much of the time, as opposed to pink or green, because of light absorption and reflection. No object "has" colour, it's just what portion of the light spectrum that is reflected back. That's why a green shirt, or any other colour, will appear totally different under sodium vapour lights (the cheap crappy things you get in old factories or in some car parks) or your skin may look deeply tanned under some lights but not others.

It's not a matter of mental conditioning. It's physics. Yeah, science Mr White.

The topic of the thread is Science bishes!!!


I actually like these threads as it gives us an insight into how and what other Cultures are thinking. I would have thought that [MENTION=2727]Fadi[/MENTION]; was a more moderate Muslim and for him to think this does make you realise how bad an opinion the more extreme Muslims must have concerning the U.S. and the West in general.

I'd like to encourage Fadi to give us more of an insight into the concerns of Muslims.

 

[WoodyAllen]

He seems to be avoiding the whole mess, when associated with the world trade centre and terrorism in general.

I view it along the line of catholics. There are lots of nice, sincere, non radical catholics. But they have an intrenched subset of peadophiles. Plus lots of other issues. I think that there are many muslims, as there are catholics, who kind of bury their heads in the sand.

Diverting the attention away from muslim extremists who caused the 911 terror attack by starting a "scientific" thread based on "what if's" and "just mebbes" is a bit of a weak effort.

 

[Fadi]

I see the arrogance of ignorance at play here. How far will the ego go to protect its ignorance?

 

[Fadi]

I actually like these threads as it gives us an insight into how and what other Cultures are thinking.

I am but one man here, so I wouldn't essentialise by using the term "cultures'. This is not Islam vs Ausbb, for even though I am a Muslim, my discussion of the subject at hand does not have to be viewed from such a position, especially when I have not expressed it anywhere in my writings in this thread. If you were to discuss the issue of 9/11, I wouldn't hold it against you that you're an atheist, and therefore your point of view is a representation based on atheism, nor would I automatically include other atheists free thinkers in your line of thoughts and reasoning. You're an individual discussing a subject matter, and ought to be given the opportunity to express your thoughts as you reason them out.

I would have thought that @Fadi; was a more moderate Muslim

This is not a label or a term I've ever used onto myself, so why label me with what I have not labeled myself? I am simply a Muslim, not this or that, but a Muslim. Since you wish to know how Muslims (in general) think when they hear non-Muslims use such a terminology, we get offended. Because there is a reason behind the usage of such a terminology which we find degrading, and that is a subject that you and I have been through before when discussing the act of condemnation..., when you wanted me to condemn such and such act. Happy to bring that back to the forefront if you so wish, but I thought I made myself amply clear at the time, and you acknowledged that fact. Hence, I am surprised (and also disappointed) by your current post towards my person and my attitude...., not because I think you're more intelligent and knowledgeable than that, but because I know you're more intelligent and more knowledgeable than you're leading on.

I would have thought that @Fadi; was a more moderate Muslim and for him to think this...

What is the "this" that I am actually thinking now? You seem to have drawn a foregone conclusion about a conclusion I have not drawn for myself. How can that be? What did I say/write to draw you to such a conclusion? I have started this thread because I still have doubts and questions in my head. If you (and others here) have drawn your conclusive conclusion based on some evidence, I say good for you. I am still examining the facts (of both sides of the argument).

...thought that @Fadi; was a more moderate Muslim and for him to think this does make you realise how bad an opinion the more extreme Muslims must have concerning the U.S. and the West in general.

I don't usually (if ever) tell members here that they are wrong straight out, but you've left me no choice to tell you that you're 100% wrong about what you've just written. Not to worry, as this may be the best news you'll ever get from me in this thread. You, as well as everyone on this forum who is 100% certain that the Muslim extremist did it, following Osama Bin Laden's instructions, you'd be pleased to know that both you (collectively) and they (the Muslim extremists) are one in full agreement, no questions asked! You see, I am viewed as an ignorant (possibly even a traitor of sort) since I don't readily accept what's on offer here. When I asked them how do you know the Muslims did it? Their (the Muslims') reply was, "we saw and heard Bin Laden praise the young martyrs of a job well done." Mmm, when I pressed further by asking where exactly did they get this critical information from? They very calmly (and confidently replied) the TV! I mean who needs to examine or investigate anything after such a firm and solid answer right?!

By the way, when I objected to the usage of the term "martyrs", and argued that in Islam that would more applicably fall under the term of "terrorism", I was...(well, let's just say I was not the most popular Muslim standing around at the time)! Islam is 100% against the taking of an innocent life, period (!)....try argue that point with a Muslim extremist...or any other extremist for that case, atheists included.

I'd like to encourage Fadi to give us more of an insight into the concerns of Muslims.

I'm here, if you have a direct and legitimate question regarding Islam, then ask away. If I know the answer, I'll share it with you, if I don't, then I'll do my best to get you the correct answer.

So you see, whether I'm here amongst you on the forum, or listening to the extremist element of Muslims talk 9/11, it's one and the same. So to the ones who thought I'm evading the topic or that I'm shying away from pointing the finger at some Muslims as the perpetrators behind 9/11, I am not. My hand is still in my pocket with my fingers covered up, until such a time when I'm fully convinced as to who the culprits behind this act were, I won't be pointing any finger at anyone. Having said that, everything I'm seeing points in favour of a cover up of sort, which is not impossible to do.

 

[WoodyAllen]

I see the arrogance of ignorance at play here. How far will the ego go to protect its ignorance?

 

[Bazza20]

I am but one man here, so I wouldn't essentialise by using the term "cultures'. This is not Islam vs Ausbb, for even though I am a Muslim, my discussion of the subject at hand does not have to be viewed from such a position, especially when I have not expressed it anywhere in my writings in this thread. If you were to discuss the issue of 9/11, I wouldn't hold it against you that you're an atheist, and therefore your point of view is a representation based on atheism, nor would I automatically include other atheists free thinkers in your line of thoughts and reasoning. You're an individual discussing a subject matter, and ought to be given the opportunity to express your thoughts as you reason them out.

This is not a label or a term I've ever used onto myself, so why label me with what I have not labeled myself? I am simply a Muslim, not this or that, but a Muslim. Since you wish to know how Muslims (in general) think when they hear non-Muslims use such a terminology, we get offended. Because there is a reason behind the usage of such a terminology which we find degrading, and that is a subject that you and I have been through before when discussing the act of condemnation..., when you wanted me to condemn such and such act. Happy to bring that back to the forefront if you so wish, but I thought I made myself amply clear at the time, and you acknowledged that fact. Hence, I am surprised (and also disappointed) by your current post towards my person and my attitude...., not because I think you're more intelligent and knowledgeable than that, but because I know you're more intelligent and more knowledgeable than you're leading on.

What is the "this" that I am actually thinking now? You seem to have drawn a foregone conclusion about a conclusion I have not drawn for myself. How can that be? What did I say/write to draw you to such a conclusion? I have started this thread because I still have doubts and questions in my head. If you (and others here) have drawn your conclusive conclusion based on some evidence, I say good for you. I am still examining the facts (of both sides of the argument).

I don't usually (if ever) tell members here that they are wrong straight out, but you've left me no choice to tell you that you're 100% wrong about what you've just written. Not to worry, as this may be the best news you'll ever get from me in this thread. You, as well as everyone on this forum who is 100% certain that the Muslim extremist did it, following Osama Bin Laden's instructions, you'd be pleased to know that both you (collectively) and they (the Muslim extremists) are one in full agreement, no questions asked! You see, I am viewed as an ignorant (possibly even a traitor of sort) since I don't readily accept what's on offer here. When I asked them how do you know the Muslims did it? Their (the Muslims') reply was, "we saw and heard Bin Laden praise the young martyrs of a job well done." Mmm, when I pressed further by asking where exactly did they get this critical information from? They very calmly (and confidently replied) the TV! I mean who needs to examine or investigate anything after such a firm and solid answer right?!

By the way, when I objected to the usage of the term "martyrs", and argued that in Islam that would more applicably fall under the term of "terrorism", I was...(well, let's just say I was not the most popular Muslim standing around at the time)! Islam is 100% against the taking of an innocent life, period (!)....try argue that point with a Muslim extremist...or any other extremist for that case, atheists included.

I'm here, if you have a direct and legitimate question regarding Islam, then ask away. If I know the answer, I'll share it with you, if I don't, then I'll do my best to get you the correct answer.

So you see, whether I'm here amongst you on the forum, or listening to the extremist element of Muslims talk 9/11, it's one and the same. So to the ones who thought I'm evading the topic or that I'm shying away from pointing the finger at some Muslims as the perpetrators behind 9/11, I am not. My hand is still in my pocket with my fingers covered up, until such a time when I'm fully convinced as to who the culprits behind this act were, I won't be pointing any finger at anyone. Having said that, everything I'm seeing points in favour of a cover up of sort, which is not impossible to do.

Nothing apart from a few loonies on YouTube points to a coverup. Is seems your fingers are very selective at who they do the pointing to.

 

[Stiffy]

I see the arrogance of ignorance at play here. How far will the ego go to protect its ignorance?

Interesting post Fadi. I saw what you originally wrote before the edit as I took a look in here before going to Bed. I'll reply to your original post as it was more friendly.

I am good thanks Fadi. I hope you and yours are well.

 

[WoodyAllen]

"A lecture by 911 researcher David Chandler".

Well, that got me converted. No one else that I know has the coveted title of "researcher". Come to think of it, all you have to do to be a researcher is to do some research.

All you need to do to prove anything is to have someone who wants to believe it. No real proof needed.


http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php

They even have a real Dr to prove it all.

 

[Fadi]

Interesting post Fadi. I saw what you originally wrote before the edit as I took a look in here before going to Bed. I'll reply to your original post as it was more friendly.

I am good thanks Fadi. I hope you and yours are well.

Why would you quote me on that? You know better than to think of yourself as being arrogant, I certainly don't think of you as such. I've dedicated a whole post replying to each and every point you've raised, and to some of the allegations you've made against me. If being politely honest with you has somehow been interpreted as being rude or unfriendly amongst friends, then for that I do apologise.

 

[Stiffy]

I am but one man here, so I wouldn't essentialise by using the term "cultures'. This is not Islam vs Ausbb, for even though I am a Muslim, my discussion of the subject at hand does not have to be viewed from such a position, especially when I have not expressed it anywhere in my writings in this thread. If you were to discuss the issue of 9/11, I wouldn't hold it against you that you're an atheist, and therefore your point of view is a representation based on atheism, nor would I automatically include other atheists free thinkers in your line of thoughts and reasoning. You're an individual discussing a subject matter, and ought to be given the opportunity to express your thoughts as you reason them out.

Yes, you are one person. But you are the only Muslim person on this forum who is prepared to discuss things that interest/concern you.

This is not a label or a term I've ever used onto myself, so why label me with what I have not labeled myself? I am simply a Muslim, not this or that, but a Muslim. Since you wish to know how Muslims (in general) think when they hear non-Muslims use such a terminology, we get offended. Because there is a reason behind the usage of such a terminology which we find degrading, and that is a subject that you and I have been through before when discussing the act of condemnation..., when you wanted me to condemn such and such act. Happy to bring that back to the forefront if you so wish, but I thought I made myself amply clear at the time, and you acknowledged that fact. Hence, I am surprised (and also disappointed) by your current post towards my person and my attitude...., not because I think you're more intelligent and knowledgeable than that, but because I know you're more intelligent and more knowledgeable than you're leading on.

If you took that offensively I do apologise, but c'mon Fadi, I wasn't trying to be rude. Just making a differentiation between yourself and the other Muslims like I.S.I.L. and Al Qaeda. To who you refer to a number of times further in your post:

try argue that point with a Muslim extremist...or any other extremist for that case

What is the "this" that I am actually thinking now? You seem to have drawn a foregone conclusion about a conclusion I have not drawn for myself. How can that be? What did I say/write to draw you to such a conclusion? I have started this thread because I still have doubts and questions in my head. If you (and others here) have drawn your conclusive conclusion based on some evidence, I say good for you. I am still examining the facts (of both sides of the argument).

I don't usually (if ever) tell members here that they are wrong straight out, but you've left me no choice to tell you that you're 100% wrong about what you've just written. Not to worry, as this may be the best news you'll ever get from me in this thread. You, as well as everyone on this forum who is 100% certain that the Muslim extremist did it, following Osama Bin Laden's instructions, you'd be pleased to know that both you (collectively) and they (the Muslim extremists) are one in full agreement, no questions asked! You see, I am viewed as an ignorant (possibly even a traitor of sort) since I don't readily accept what's on offer here. When I asked them how do you know the Muslims did it? Their (the Muslims') reply was, "we saw and heard Bin Laden praise the young martyrs of a job well done." Mmm, when I pressed further by asking where exactly did they get this critical information from? They very calmly (and confidently replied) the TV! I mean who needs to examine or investigate anything after such a firm and solid answer right?!

I did watch some of that video you posted in OP but I also watched a Documentary a few years but which "proved" how the Planes brought the Towers down.

I do feel you have a distrust of the U.S. My Father and my Grandfather both had a dislike for the United States. My Father actually cheered a bit during the first "Gulf War" when it seems the "Yanks" might cop a beating. I can only put their dislike for the U.S. down to the U.S. being late into WW1 and WW2 and the U.S.'s strongly Capitalistic society.

I'm here, if you have a direct and legitimate question regarding Islam, then ask away. If I know the answer, I'll share it with you, if I don't, then I'll do my best to get you the correct answer.

This is great. Thank you Fadi.

So you see, whether I'm here amongst you on the forum, or listening to the extremist element of Muslims talk 9/11, it's one and the same. So to the ones who thought I'm evading the topic or that I'm shying away from pointing the finger at some Muslims as the perpetrators behind 9/11, I am not. My hand is still in my pocket with my fingers covered up, until such a time when I'm fully convinced as to who the culprits behind this act were, I won't be pointing any finger at anyone. Having said that, everything I'm seeing points in favour of a cover up of sort, which is not impossible to do.

This is great too Fadi. We all need to be open to new ways of thinking as we may know what we know. We may even know some of what we don't know. But we don't know what we don't know!

 

[Stiffy]

Why would you quote me on that? You know better than to think of yourself as being arrogant, I certainly don't think of you as such. I've dedicated a whole post replying to each and every point you've raised, and to some of the allegations you've made against me. If being politely honest with you has somehow been interpreted as being rude or unfriendly amongst friends, then for that I do apologise.

All good Fadi. I assumed (wrongly it seems) that you meant that towards me. Apologies and thanks


P.S. Great Avatar Fadi. Dr Fred Hollows was a great Man with a strong social conscience.

 

[WoodyAllen]

Why would you quote me on that? You know better than to think of yourself as being arrogant, I certainly don't think of you as such. I've dedicated a whole post replying to each and every point you've raised, and to some of the allegations you've made against me. If being politely honest with you has somehow been interpreted as being rude or unfriendly amongst friends, then for that I do apologise.

Yeah, Stiffo, you phukked up bad there. Fadi does not believe in moderate muslims. It's insulting to call people that, like being a moderate catholic or moderate labour voter, or a moderate liberal voter. So all muslims are just muslims. By extension, there are no radical muslims either. Or mid way muslims. Just muslims. So the guys that flew the planes into the twin towers were just muslims, not extreme muslims.

I am simply a Muslim, not this or that, but a Muslim. Since you wish to know how Muslims (in general) think when they hear non-Muslims use such a terminology, we get offended. Because there is a reason behind the usage of such a terminology which we find degrading,