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I did a battery of blood tests late last year as i was going down hill, only problem was a high uric acid and my kidney function was down to 53 when it should have been 59. I got that back up to 58.5 in 2 weeks and the ultrasound on the kidneys was fine. Also was diagnosed with glandular fever, but was at the end of it. Lipid values are all fine. A-Bombs can be harsh but 6 weeks is the maximum, there is no results to see going over 100mg day. It is however a great kickstart to a cycle of injectables. I am running Milk Thistle and extra Fish oils to aid the joints. Diet and rest is spot on (for me) LOL Hopefully i can retain half of the weight/muscle gain.
AZZA
Self medicating with anadrol... Lol I use the excuse of self medicating to smash in a big cycle too
LOL i know, i cant get my hands on any SUS250 right now. All the gear i have was FREE my man 5 vials, 120 A-Bombs and 200 Clomids, i swapped some A-Bombs for a unopened bottle of Nolva as i would only be using 56 tabs.
Ideally i would just do a SUS250 ampule once a week, this will keep me happy but the opportunity came up for a log and free gear so i jumped at it.
AZZA
Self medicating with anadrol... Lol I use the excuse of self medicating to smash in a big cycle too
Hey, i just realised you are from Toowoomba, well so am i.
AZZA
Fadi
...
I’ve read everyone’s post before deciding to enter this thread. Now I’m not here to take sides between John and Christian. However I would only give you my view as I see the picture from my angle.
I’ve read Dr Eugene Shippen’s book: The Testosterone Syndrome, and found it helpful and very informative indeed. So helpful in fact that I decided to lend it to my own doctor. Well few years later and I’ve still to recover that book…it was lent by my doctor to his other doctors friends. It’s a good book and worth your time if you’re interested in male andropause.
Androgel/testogel is made to be absorbed over a period of 24 hours. I’d like to emphasise one crucial point here and that is the point of absorption rate. This form of testosterone (which apparently is Dr Shippen’s favourite), is preferred over others (especially SUS250) because of its gradual and steady state release and absorption. In other words the yo yo effect that one may get by using SUS250 (according to the experience he has with his patients) is eliminated here. After all, what is the point of a testosterone spike that is ultimately met by a crash that is followed by a state of low testosterone levels?
This brings me to the debate/discussion that is taking place between John and Christian now. Where to apply this form of test? Well, based on what I wrote above, I would say that applying this form of testosterone anywhere on the body that would increase its absorption rate (above what is recommended by its manufacture), would in a way (at least in my opinion) defeat/negate the purpose of it being a gradual and steady (over a 24h period) type of drug.
If by applying it to the testes would increase DHT or speed its rate of absorption and assimilation more so than was intended by its maker, then again I see that as going beyond what this product was intended for. Let me clarify my last point lest I be misunderstood here. If you buy a V8, and then increase its power/KW etc., yet do nothing to balance your actions by similarly boosting the braking power of that V8, then you would be asking for nothing but trouble. In other words, a state of balance is key here.
Last but not least, if as Christian has said that by rubbing this gel on one’s abdominal region where the largest amount of aromatase is located is somewhat detrimental, then I say why not choose another location (as is provided by the leaflet given out by the manufacturer). Other locations include the deltoid area, so why not there for example?
Again, I did not enter this discussion to take sides but simply to look at the whole picture from a slightly different angle, the angle of intention by the maker (which does not always work by the way) as has been proven by SUS250's eratic behaviour when taken as intended by Organon.
Fadi.
I’ve read Dr Eugene Shippen’s book: The Testosterone Syndrome, and found it helpful and very informative indeed. So helpful in fact that I decided to lend it to my own doctor. Well few years later and I’ve still to recover that book…it was lent by my doctor to his other doctors friends. It’s a good book and worth your time if you’re interested in male andropause.
Androgel/testogel is made to be absorbed over a period of 24 hours. I’d like to emphasise one crucial point here and that is the point of absorption rate. This form of testosterone (which apparently is Dr Shippen’s favourite), is preferred over others (especially SUS250) because of its gradual and steady state release and absorption. In other words the yo yo effect that one may get by using SUS250 (according to the experience he has with his patients) is eliminated here. After all, what is the point of a testosterone spike that is ultimately met by a crash that is followed by a state of low testosterone levels?
This brings me to the debate/discussion that is taking place between John and Christian now. Where to apply this form of test? Well, based on what I wrote above, I would say that applying this form of testosterone anywhere on the body that would increase its absorption rate (above what is recommended by its manufacture), would in a way (at least in my opinion) defeat/negate the purpose of it being a gradual and steady (over a 24h period) type of drug.
If by applying it to the testes would increase DHT or speed its rate of absorption and assimilation more so than was intended by its maker, then again I see that as going beyond what this product was intended for. Let me clarify my last point lest I be misunderstood here. If you buy a V8, and then increase its power/KW etc., yet do nothing to balance your actions by similarly boosting the braking power of that V8, then you would be asking for nothing but trouble. In other words, a state of balance is key here.
Last but not least, if as Christian has said that by rubbing this gel on one’s abdominal region where the largest amount of aromatase is located is somewhat detrimental, then I say why not choose another location (as is provided by the leaflet given out by the manufacturer). Other locations include the deltoid area, so why not there for example?
Again, I did not enter this discussion to take sides but simply to look at the whole picture from a slightly different angle, the angle of intention by the maker (which does not always work by the way) as has been proven by SUS250's eratic behaviour when taken as intended by Organon.
Fadi.
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Gauche
Member
For life! But really... I hope I get out of this f&$@ing place one day!!!
Christian
Active Member, June10MOTM
All people are different... Some people spike DHT from simply using transdermals in the first place. They have high 5-a-reductase activity. Naturally scrotal applicaiton would not be the best move for them.
As is the same for people who suffer from a high amount of e2 production...
As per fadis comments regarding the car. Well Wyeth have developed a product of testosterone delivery. Naturally every body is different and no company can forsee this.
Everybody is different in so many ways. There is no 1 size fits all with TRT and hormonal modulation or any Drug/Nutrient Food therapy. That is why dosages exist and different methods of dleivery and different products.
Theraputically speaking to boost libido DHT is very important. e2 is important also though i doubt many if any men suffer too low oestradiol during hormone modulation if anything it is something that many men have troubling avoiding.
I find the act of simply changing applicaiton location to boost DHT as opposed to boosting DHT seperatley is alot easier.
However everybody is different.
Do you want all that tetsosteorne in touch with all that aromatase containing adipocytes?
Testosterone substitution with a new transdermal, hydroalcoholic gel applied to scrotal or non-scrotal skin: a multicentre trial -- Khnert et al. 153 (2): 317 -- European Journal of Endocrinology
As is the same for people who suffer from a high amount of e2 production...
As per fadis comments regarding the car. Well Wyeth have developed a product of testosterone delivery. Naturally every body is different and no company can forsee this.
Everybody is different in so many ways. There is no 1 size fits all with TRT and hormonal modulation or any Drug/Nutrient Food therapy. That is why dosages exist and different methods of dleivery and different products.
Theraputically speaking to boost libido DHT is very important. e2 is important also though i doubt many if any men suffer too low oestradiol during hormone modulation if anything it is something that many men have troubling avoiding.
I find the act of simply changing applicaiton location to boost DHT as opposed to boosting DHT seperatley is alot easier.
However everybody is different.
Do you want all that tetsosteorne in touch with all that aromatase containing adipocytes?
Testosterone substitution with a new transdermal, hydroalcoholic gel applied to scrotal or non-scrotal skin: a multicentre trial -- Khnert et al. 153 (2): 317 -- European Journal of Endocrinology
Gauche
Member
Old school gym that one, big Luke is decent stand up guy though. I trained there back in the Nineties. Dont like some of his plate loaded stuff though. Closest gym that resembles powerlifting in Toowoomba. Use to be a lot of powerlifting there back in my day. Seen some big lifts there. Bloke i know squatted 220 there, at 75 bw. My biggest lifts were all done there.
AZZA
Fadi
...
Gauche, the endocrinologist is a specialist in his field and that is an aspect I highly and duly respect. However, a drug such as testogel (and others) is also designed by likewise specialist in the field of endocrinology. What I have presented was not my own but the instructions that was supplied by the company that manufactures testogel. It is for the endocrinologist to explain and make clear his position of veering off the manufacture's recommendation. This is not different from (say) Intel recommending their CPU run at (say) 3Gig, when an overclocker comes along and pushes that processer to (say) 3.9Gig (with proper cooling etc.). If something gives with that 3Gig CPU when overclocked, one would not hold Intel responsible but the over clocker instead. Would you not agree? Or at least one would expect a good explanation from that computer wiz as to what went drastically wrong that caused that poor CPU to fry (for example).
Gauche, here are the three main points you have raised in your reply/question to me (which I have highlighted above), all were based on what the endocrinologist said:
1. Estimated time for absorption.
2. Location of application based on absorption rate.
3. The implication that applying it at a location other than the testes would convert the testogel to estrogen.
As you can see, it is not I that have made claims that are contradictory with the designer/manufacturer of testogel, but the endocrinologist. Therefore, I feel that an explanation and some evidence of some new findings whether based on experience/blood testing with his patients, or some new published evidence/studies that the manufacturer of testogel are somehow not aware of.
Hello there AZZA. I'm fine thank you. I’ve just been a little bit busy that’s all mate.
Fadi.
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Christian
Active Member, June10MOTM
My arimidex instructions also state to not use if you are male.
My test enth also tells me to inject 1ml every too weeks.
My Hcg sad to inject 1500iu all at once im not sub. Insanity dosage..
Sorry but I disagree what what you have said fadi.. Practitioners have real world experience with how these products work on a large population. That accounts for more then a few small short studies and a lab coats idea of application.
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Fadi
...
Christian, disagreeing with me is your prerogative Sir and I welcome it. You may have noticed that I did not set out to agree or disagree with anything you or John were saying no; I was merely pointing out that both of you had a reason for saying what you were saying and claiming to be the best approach.
I went on to answer Gauche directly and I replied within the context of his question to me the following regarding practitioners having real world experiences: “Therefore, I feel that an explanation and some evidence of some new findings whether based on experience/blood testing with his patients, or some new published evidence/studies that the manufacturer of testogel are somehow not aware of.
That was what I said. I’m not saying that the endocrinologist who says that testogel would absorb over a 6 hour period is wrong, I’m saying I need to see something to back this great discrepancy between what the manufacturer is claiming and what the practitioner is recommending, that’s all. I’ve used both Sus250 as well as testogel and I can see (and have experienced for myself) what was written on paper and what the real world response was like. I (at least) can say that taking sus250 as recommended by its manufacturer would not solve but would instead exasperate a low testosterone problem. However I cannot say the same when it comes to testogel and I was merely asking for some evidence to back up such claims that instead of the drug being absorbed over a period of 24 hours, it’s (according to the endocrinologist), absorbed over a 6 hour period. I believe I have every right to ask for some real evidence here (from that endocrinologist) since my experience contradict his claim.
I’m agreeing with you (in case you haven’t noticed) when I had mentioned the following in my first comment in reply #105:Again, I did not enter this discussion to take sides but simply to look at the whole picture from a slightly different angle, the angle of intention by the maker (which does not always work by the way) as has been proven by SUS250's erratic behaviour when taken as intended by Organon.
Fadi.
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Christian
Active Member, June10MOTM
When I had my bloods drawn with testogel I reached peak serum values 4 hours after application..
The next morning however I was at 4.3nmol/l
My blood tests show the effects of application to abdominal / shoulders and scrotum
.. There is an enhanced e2 increase with abdominal application. And increased dht with scrotal application.
This is also shown in clinical application based o hundreds of patients maybe thousands. From different practitioners experiences.
The next morning however I was at 4.3nmol/l
My blood tests show the effects of application to abdominal / shoulders and scrotum
.. There is an enhanced e2 increase with abdominal application. And increased dht with scrotal application.
This is also shown in clinical application based o hundreds of patients maybe thousands. From different practitioners experiences.
Response from Endocrinologist...
Asked about Tribulis first..
Tribulis is a weed often used in traditional therapy to increase sex drive and erections. This is minimal data of its use in healthy individuals. I therefore cannot say whether it will have any effect, positive or negative, for you.
Aromatase enzymes are in the testicles not the scrotum. As your article showed, skin thickness does not influence absorption so applying to the scrotum will make no difference. Once testosterone gel is absorb it gets into circulation and then gets to the testicles – it doesn’t matter if it is absorbed from scrotal skin or elsewhere, it all gets into circulation before getting to the testicles. The dosing and strength of Testogel has been determined with application to non hairy, no scrotal skin – hence this is how we prescribe it.
John
Asked about Tribulis first..
Tribulis is a weed often used in traditional therapy to increase sex drive and erections. This is minimal data of its use in healthy individuals. I therefore cannot say whether it will have any effect, positive or negative, for you.
Aromatase enzymes are in the testicles not the scrotum. As your article showed, skin thickness does not influence absorption so applying to the scrotum will make no difference. Once testosterone gel is absorb it gets into circulation and then gets to the testicles – it doesn’t matter if it is absorbed from scrotal skin or elsewhere, it all gets into circulation before getting to the testicles. The dosing and strength of Testogel has been determined with application to non hairy, no scrotal skin – hence this is how we prescribe it.
John