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Muscle size is NOT correlated to muscle strength.
- Thread starter Fadi
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- correlated muscle size strength
Shrek
Fucked up Kunce
LOL, it was a compliment and a very interesting read and kinda a life story.
This thread is way off topic, so I'll attempt to bring it back.
Fardi, I too am a lover of Olympic lifting. If sthere is no correlation between strength and size, could you please answer these questions.
Could Naim have placed against the heavier weight groups at the Olympics?
What were Naims best training lifts at higher bodyweights?
Why are the world records higher the heavier the competitors get?
I know the answers to these questions, I thought you may like to answer them for the others.
Every client in my gym gets stronger as he gets heavier, may be some link there, otherwise, why have weight classes? Could it be the heavier guy has a strength advantage?
Fardi, I too am a lover of Olympic lifting. If sthere is no correlation between strength and size, could you please answer these questions.
Could Naim have placed against the heavier weight groups at the Olympics?
What were Naims best training lifts at higher bodyweights?
Why are the world records higher the heavier the competitors get?
I know the answers to these questions, I thought you may like to answer them for the others.
Every client in my gym gets stronger as he gets heavier, may be some link there, otherwise, why have weight classes? Could it be the heavier guy has a strength advantage?
If indeed you meant between lifters, then no, there are stacks of variables
Muscle fibre make up
Leverage
Type of training
Tendon strength
Years of training
So a lifter with smaller muscles may be stronger than a lifter with bigger muscles
But what if the smaller lifter got bigger muscles, then yes, he would be stronger, absolutely, Ed Coan got heavier, went from 90kg class to 100kg class, and lifted more weight.
So while you can clearly get stronger WITHOUT getting bigger, there is most definitely a link between muscle size and strength.
I'll take that back if a 90kg guy ever wins WSM
Muscle fibre make up
Leverage
Type of training
Tendon strength
Years of training
So a lifter with smaller muscles may be stronger than a lifter with bigger muscles
But what if the smaller lifter got bigger muscles, then yes, he would be stronger, absolutely, Ed Coan got heavier, went from 90kg class to 100kg class, and lifted more weight.
So while you can clearly get stronger WITHOUT getting bigger, there is most definitely a link between muscle size and strength.
I'll take that back if a 90kg guy ever wins WSM
Kyle Aaron
Active member
I can see that you can get two guys of the same weight and bodyfat percentage, and the same time training, and one is stronger than the other; or you can get two guys who can lift the same weight, and one is bigger than the other.
For example, in my class there's a guy from an Olympic-style weightlifting club, he's 5kg lighter than me, and of my extra 5kg maybe only 1kg is muscle compared to him... but he is overall stronger. Also there's a 99kg guy aiming to build a bigger physique, but his lifts are only just equal to the 69.5kg guy who never aimed for size or strength, just did martial arts.
So it seems to me that training is the biggest issue in strength, just knowing how to move the weight. However, at the same time I don't see how we can improve strength without getting bigger, or how we can get bigger muscles without also gaining some strength.
I mean, just look at brickies, baker and butcher's forearms, they're huge. And what are they doing? Maybe 500-1,000 reps of 5-20% 1RM every day. All the broscience says that's impossible, high reps of low weight do nothing - so they should have puny arms. But their arms are strong and big both. Not recommending that as a training method, just noting it.
So my impression is that the correlation between size and strength is not 1:1. Two lean 80kg guys won't necessarily have the same strength. But usually a lean 100kg guy will usually be stronger than a lean 70kg guy. So there's a correlation, but not a perfect one.
These are just my impressions.
For example, in my class there's a guy from an Olympic-style weightlifting club, he's 5kg lighter than me, and of my extra 5kg maybe only 1kg is muscle compared to him... but he is overall stronger. Also there's a 99kg guy aiming to build a bigger physique, but his lifts are only just equal to the 69.5kg guy who never aimed for size or strength, just did martial arts.
So it seems to me that training is the biggest issue in strength, just knowing how to move the weight. However, at the same time I don't see how we can improve strength without getting bigger, or how we can get bigger muscles without also gaining some strength.
I mean, just look at brickies, baker and butcher's forearms, they're huge. And what are they doing? Maybe 500-1,000 reps of 5-20% 1RM every day. All the broscience says that's impossible, high reps of low weight do nothing - so they should have puny arms. But their arms are strong and big both. Not recommending that as a training method, just noting it.
So my impression is that the correlation between size and strength is not 1:1. Two lean 80kg guys won't necessarily have the same strength. But usually a lean 100kg guy will usually be stronger than a lean 70kg guy. So there's a correlation, but not a perfect one.
These are just my impressions.
skidmark
New member
I think the original intent of this post was to say that training for strength and training for size are two different things. Therefore know your goal and then your training should reflect that.
Bodybuilders train for hypertrophy (muscle size) and as a result there are also generally strength gains. Powerlifters train for strength and power, and inevitably muscle size also increases with strength gains (but not to the same degree as if they were training for size only).
Bodybuilders train for hypertrophy (muscle size) and as a result there are also generally strength gains. Powerlifters train for strength and power, and inevitably muscle size also increases with strength gains (but not to the same degree as if they were training for size only).
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Everyone is missing the point.
A lifter that gets heavier, will get stronger. A lifter cannot gain fat alone, he has to build muscle if he is lifting weights, regardless of his diet.
Fadi said there was NO correlation between muscle and strength, and he used Naim as an example.
I have Naims best ever lifts, and he lifted more weight the heavier he got. Every elite lifter does.
I'm sure Fadi did as well.
I'm not comparing lifters because of the variables which most dont understand. I am using a solitary lifter at 2 bodyweights, its not rocket science.
A lifter that gets heavier, will get stronger. A lifter cannot gain fat alone, he has to build muscle if he is lifting weights, regardless of his diet.
Fadi said there was NO correlation between muscle and strength, and he used Naim as an example.
I have Naims best ever lifts, and he lifted more weight the heavier he got. Every elite lifter does.
I'm sure Fadi did as well.
I'm not comparing lifters because of the variables which most dont understand. I am using a solitary lifter at 2 bodyweights, its not rocket science.
Kyle Aaron
Active member
I can see and understand that. But I'm sceptical that the two things are very separate.
Just yesterday in class as part of our learning we were told to write up a workout for a client based on their condition and goals, condition and goals given by the teacher (otherwise we'd run out of things to try out, since the class is just 24 or so). My "client" had the goal of "upper body hypertrophy." I gave him 3 sets of 10 reps, not because I believed he'd get no size increase at 5 or 15 reps, but just because that'd be easy for a new person to understand, and having a fair number of reps lets them get into things, learn the movement and so on.
I was told to make it 8-12, as this was supposedly best for hypertrophy. I found myself thinking of Reg Park, who claimed to have done 5x5 for most exercises in his youth (two warm-up and 3 work sets). He certainly achieved significant size increases. And as I noted above, many tradesmen do literally hundreds of reps daily of light weights and end up with big arms.
So if 3x12, 5x5 and 500x1 can all give us size gains, what rep range should I train in to get only size or only strength?
I'm just not convinced they're very separate, or that the training is so different. As I said, there's not a perfect correlation, but it is there.
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skidmark
New member
I don't think anyone was saying there is absolutely no correlation (The title may be worded poorly). It is clear that heavier lifters generally lift higher numbers. I myself found this on my 5 x 5 program. Increased carbs, increased fats, increased protein, resulted in bigger lifts, more muscle mass and heavier body weight. No doubt about it.
However, if your absolute main goal for training is hypertrophy/body building then don't spend your time doing a 3 rep power building routine as maximum muscle size is not achieved on this sort of training program.
Fadi
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Markos, thank you for your observation. The comparison I was making here was first and foremost between a weightlifter and a bodybuilder (if there is any comparison at all really)!
When I was a weightlifter, I was training specifically to get strong and not big by utilising the low rep system (as weightlifters do). As a bodybuilder and 15kg heavier, I am not as strong as I was when weightlifting.
So what I was trying to achieve with my article was to send a message to that bodybuilder who's always down because his strength is not going up. And I went to point out that the "secret" was in the approach to training.
Now your issue seems to be concentrating on bodyweight. Sure, a weightlifter who trains like a weightlifter DOES get stronger when his bodyweight increases, no question there. But that was NOT the point I was getting at.
To give Naim as an example again, would you say a 70kg bodybuilder (who is 10kg heavier than Naim at 60kg) would be stronger than the Champ? I doubt it very much.
So what you may have done here Markos is take things out of context; the context of the comparison between a bodybuilder and a weightlifter.
Mark suggested that I may have worded the title of the article poorly; for that I apologise. For anything else, my point still stands.
Fadi.
When I was a weightlifter, I was training specifically to get strong and not big by utilising the low rep system (as weightlifters do). As a bodybuilder and 15kg heavier, I am not as strong as I was when weightlifting.
So what I was trying to achieve with my article was to send a message to that bodybuilder who's always down because his strength is not going up. And I went to point out that the "secret" was in the approach to training.
Now your issue seems to be concentrating on bodyweight. Sure, a weightlifter who trains like a weightlifter DOES get stronger when his bodyweight increases, no question there. But that was NOT the point I was getting at.
To give Naim as an example again, would you say a 70kg bodybuilder (who is 10kg heavier than Naim at 60kg) would be stronger than the Champ? I doubt it very much.
So what you may have done here Markos is take things out of context; the context of the comparison between a bodybuilder and a weightlifter.
Mark suggested that I may have worded the title of the article poorly; for that I apologise. For anything else, my point still stands.
Fadi.
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Read the title of this thread again, thats all I was referring too.
Maybe you guys are looking at a different screen to mine, but not is even in CAPS.
I know lots of 70kg guys who could smash Naim in bench press, he is stronger in his chosen sport, powerlifters are stronger in theirs.
Futile argument, and irrelevant to the original topic.
What you were trying to say is BIG ASS BODYBUILDERS CANT CLEAN AS MUCH WEIGHT AS TINY WEIGHTLIFTERS. I'm pretty sure that Ronnie can deadlift more than Naim though.
This I totally agree with.
But muscle plays a huge part in other weight trained sports like Powerlifting, WSM, Highland Games etc, even in Olympic lifting. Dimas is heavier than Naim, and kills him, because he is bigger.
Pointless comparing lifters from different sports, which your trying to do.
Anyway, no point arguing, I got my point across.
Your an asset to this forum big fella, keep it up.
Maybe you guys are looking at a different screen to mine, but not is even in CAPS.
I know lots of 70kg guys who could smash Naim in bench press, he is stronger in his chosen sport, powerlifters are stronger in theirs.
Futile argument, and irrelevant to the original topic.
What you were trying to say is BIG ASS BODYBUILDERS CANT CLEAN AS MUCH WEIGHT AS TINY WEIGHTLIFTERS. I'm pretty sure that Ronnie can deadlift more than Naim though.
This I totally agree with.
But muscle plays a huge part in other weight trained sports like Powerlifting, WSM, Highland Games etc, even in Olympic lifting. Dimas is heavier than Naim, and kills him, because he is bigger.
Pointless comparing lifters from different sports, which your trying to do.
Anyway, no point arguing, I got my point across.
Your an asset to this forum big fella, keep it up.
Fadi
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David,
You're such a gentleman for wanting to keep the peace here and I salute you for your noble intention. I wish and would love nothing more than to see Markos's last two sentences as you see them my friend; but all I see is an insult and a sarcastic remark that was really uncalled-for.
The only exchange I previously had with Markos was here in reply #15 to his #12 post: http://ausbb.com/bodybuilding-training-discussions/8964-im-damn-frustrated-2.html
That's all I want to say at this point in time. Again, I thank you for your high manners David.
Fadi.
You're such a gentleman for wanting to keep the peace here and I salute you for your noble intention. I wish and would love nothing more than to see Markos's last two sentences as you see them my friend; but all I see is an insult and a sarcastic remark that was really uncalled-for.
The only exchange I previously had with Markos was here in reply #15 to his #12 post: http://ausbb.com/bodybuilding-training-discussions/8964-im-damn-frustrated-2.html
That's all I want to say at this point in time. Again, I thank you for your high manners David.
Fadi.
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Kyle Aaron
Active member
I think Markos was being genuine in saying you're an asset to this forum. He's like that, he can recognise the good in something or someone even if it's not 100% his own style. Thus for example though he has general contempt for PTs, he is interested in my adventures as I work to becoming a PT, and I think the contempt has become a little less severe as a result.
I don't think he was being sarcastic at all.
I don't think he was being sarcastic at all.
Fadi, grow up, I was genuine, how can I not be, you have achieved more in lifting than this entire forum combined.Do you really think I dont recognize this.
Maybe your a little insecure and arent used to compliments.
Perhaps your comprehension skills are not as good as your clean technique.
I was merely pointing out the topic of this thread is idiotic.
Read your own sig and see if its a good topic OR heading. Very innacurate.
Keep up the good work ( genuine)
Maybe your a little insecure and arent used to compliments.
Perhaps your comprehension skills are not as good as your clean technique.
I was merely pointing out the topic of this thread is idiotic.
Read your own sig and see if its a good topic OR heading. Very innacurate.
Keep up the good work ( genuine)