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Thank you Von, I appreciate you replying mate. And I won't press you in providing me with a solution to that American "problem" as you've put it. However you do at least acknowledge that there are solutions. My question is , why aren't these solutions being put on the table/presented to the president/congress for discussions and examination? Or have they been presented yet rejected?

I understand. However hasn't Sir El Stiffy provided this thread with evidence that would contradict the
and the freedom that was given up really achieved nothing at all.
Was there not a reduction in gun crime and suicide rate as he has presented to the forum?



I appreciate your stance here and I won't argue this point. Again, I thank you for your valued contribution to this argument Von.
 
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[MENTION=12409]Sir El Stiffy[/MENTION]; I gave you an explanation about how harsh Chicago's gun laws are, and I didn't say they WERE the toughest, I said that they are some of the toughest (though it appears that they are slowly loosening).

In regards to your study, here is one that contradicts it, apart from the suicide change (which can also be explained by societal change due to coming out of a recession). I should point out that I have no problem with regulation of people who can access firearms in our country.

http://www.ic-wish.org/Baker and McPhedran Gun Laws and Sudden Death.pdf "When compared with observed values, firearm suicide was the only parameter the NFA may have influenced, although societal factors could also have influenced observed changes".

She's also written some good articles about the irrelevance of the US to our own firearm policy making:

http://theconversation.com/imported...place-in-australias-gun-control-debates-48741

http://theconversation.com/regulati...in-australias-decline-in-mass-shootings-44770

Disclaimer: Samara McPhedran is a shooter as well as an academic.
 

Pretty much this. The reason I'm so strident about it, and will argue with people about endlessly, is that in this country the media and political narrative about guns and shooting is almost always so insanely one sided, and we as law abiding firearm owners are constantly having to try and fight more and more unnecessary regulation. At least you're being realistic about the situation. I also think that many Australians have an irrational fear of firearms due to the lopsided media reporting and social stigma towards them.
 


OK, so based on the above statements I think we can conclude that you both are only arguing here as you fear that the current Laws in Australia will be tightened if you agree that the U.S. should introduce Guns Legislation similar to Australia. I'm not sure how legitimate that paranoia is.

But I think we've all found some common ground; we all agree that the U.S. should introduce similar Laws to Australia's, whether some of us are prepared to admit it or not.
 
Unfortunately when a debate such as this, as they frequently do, becomes about position and is purely adversarial the chances of reaching a genuinely effective outcome are virtually nil. This goes for both sides of the argument in the broader/global community. I may be out of the loop but to my knowledge there is no new legislation trying to be enacted which will reduce Australian firearms owners ability to enjoy their chosen sport/past time. I suspect this fear of 'diminished freedom' stems from the US and is not relevant here beyond the current status quo.

We have seen the course this debate has taken and how it has developed between a few members on a forum in a country where (fortunately) mas shootings are a virtual non event and gun culture is not prevalent. We can only imagine the challenges of trying to bring about sensible gun control reform in a country like America where the gun lobby has significant political persuasion (which is a whole other discussion), there are the vested interests of the firearms industry and politicians alike, many years of cultural norms, regular mass shootings, many victims and victims families, a higher population and vastly different demographics.

I think we have reached some consensus on the fact that the US has a significant problem and something should be done to curb the high level of violence they experience. Is gun control the panacea? No. But it needs to be part of the broader solution which addresses the underlying social dysfunction which predicates this behaviour.
 
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Not so much paranoia about tightening of gun laws as the driving force, rather a commitment to clawing back some of what was lost and improving the status and popularity of recreational shooting, conservation hunting and any other lawful activity that involves firearms. We have learnt that too much time spent looking over the shoulder doesn't gain forward momentum. I'm comfortable the anti-gun rhetoric in Australia has waned to ineffective levels, however at my end of the debate it's important not to give away any ground.
 
, however at my end of the debate it's important not to give away any ground.
I think that's the problems with the pro gun groups they come across as raving nutters because they are not willing to give any ground, you know the old " if everyone had a gun it would be a safer place" ."give teachers a gun that will fix it"
What you have said above makes sense Von, and I think would serve your end of the debate well.
Maybe Aussie gun laws could be eased a bit, but the U.S. Gun Laws do need to be tougher, as soon as I hear someone raving on that the U.S gun Laws are fine or to tough as they are, There is just no point giving them any acknowledgment at all.lets never follow the U.S
 
Many probably do have a irrational fear, but many do have irrational fear about lots of things eg Sharks immunisation, lentils etc etc
most I would say like me don't and when I listen to the debate I think the pro gun side come out looking like the looney party, defending guns and the U.S gun laws to the end, this is what the media uses to make the pro gun guy's look crackers
 

Are you not aware of the new Ammo Bill in NSW? Or the current push from various unelected bureaucrats to have lever action firearms recategorized so that ordinary AB license holders can no longer possess them? That's two that I can think of off the top of my head.


The NFA review is mid next year as well, and I'm sure that the media will be working overdrive with endless stories about Port Arthur.
[MENTION=12409]Sir El Stiffy[/MENTION]; no I'm arguing against increased gun control for the US because they do not enforce the current background check system properly, let alone enact more laws that will do bugger all.
 
I'm aware of push to restrict levers, but I don't think that will get traction as the reality of it is quite ridiculous? From Dec 2015 -

"The letter further pointed out that a case has yet to be made for reclassification, stating: “The Deputy Premier has indicated that the New South Wales Government is not convinced that these criteria have been met at this time.”

I'm not aware of a pending NSW ammo bill unless you refer to the already enacted requirements to provide increased ID and documentation that you own the firearm you are buying the ammo for. I don't see a problem with this. The realistic impact of this to law abiding shooters is that they have to carry an extra piece of paper to the shop with them. What I do disagree with is that the data be recorded by the dealers themselves. This is a terrible idea. As for the NFA review, well...all legislation needs to be reviewed. I would posit that twenty years is in fact too long between drinks. If groups like the SSAA and the SFP, which receive dues from all their member, do their job there is no reason the process cannot be beneficial.
 
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That's why most of us would prefer to talk about the Australian gun laws in the context of Australia only, however everyone else always has to inextricably link us to the US. Most shooters I know just want to maintain the status quo and be left alone, however ongoing media attention has meant that this won't happen unless we're proactive.

@Repacked; what possible benefit does it give? When criminals are using guns and ammunition that generally isn't commercially purchased? All it does is create even more work for gun shops and gun owners. As it is you have to show you license when you buy ammo. That should be enough.

SA have a nebulous clause in their new firearms bill of possession of a 'reasonable quantity' of ammo. Who defines that? Most of us buy in bulk because we already get charged through the nose. This also applies to dealers.

In addition to that, in both of those states you can only own ammunition for firearms you own (so no buying ammo to use in your mates guns).

So to play the devil's advocate here, and say that our gun laws are totally awesome and are the reason that we're not a clone of the US etc, why do we need further regulation?
 
Curtailment offreedom has already been attempted there with Prohibition. It resulted ingrowing a huge black market and criminal activity where before it was eithernon existent or minimal.
Funnily enough, when you made that comment, I responded to it in post #338. However I'm revisiting this particular point re alcohol prohibition from a totally different angle, one I'd be most interested to see opinions on.

You see bozodos; we all know that alcohol can be an addictive drug to many, even though some may not like to acknowledge that fact. Moving on from there; are guns also addictive to many? You see, an addict must get his fix (alcohol), and abruptly confiscating it and prohibiting it, would most certainly create a new wave of criminal activity from the manufacturing, supplying, and purchasing point of view, as does the American history of/between 1920-1933 testify.

So I'm asking again; are guns also addictive? If so, the solution is very much unlike that of alcohol. In NSW, no matter how much a police officer likes; is attached, admires, is fond of his gun, he leaves it at the police station upon the completion of his shift. Others, who also admire their guns and love to shoot with them, can also have access to them in a shooting club etc. My point is this; introducing a law that says you can shoot, but not possess is feasible form an addiction point of view, unlike alcohol addiction, where you need to have it when you need to have it.

Moving on further to another new angle that no one has visited yet, would be the angle I'd like to call motive. The gun owner, Von, bozodos etc., must have a motive that drives them to wanting to own/carry/shoot a gun. That motive is their business and it's not what this point is about. Similarly, the people opposing gun owners like Von and bozodos, likewise they also do have their motive, a motive that is driving them to oppose the other side. For me as an outsider looking in, and one who is doing his best to be impartial to both parties, I see a vast difference between those two very different driving motives of the two parties.


One the one hand, we have the gun owner who is driven by his desire to own for the enjoyment/feeling of protection he receives from owning. He may feel more secure by owning. He gets an adrenaline rush through target shooting etc. On the other hand (and a vastly different motivator), we have an opposition whose motive is death itself... death by a bullet!

A third angle is a government who is in fear of its own citizens rebelling/uprising against it through the power of a gun, as a man with a gun, can potentially control 100 without, and is not easily controllable. The flip side is a society who has mistrust of its own government, seeking to protect itself through the freedom to possess a gun. Are they not both legitimate within their own right? In a perfect world, both government and that governed ought to live in peace and not in fear of one another.

On the one extreme, the gun owner points out to 1938 Germany and its disarming of the Jews, and enacting a law that effectively deprived
all Jews living under the Third Reich of the right to possess any form of weapons including truncheons, knives, or firearms and ammunition…resulting in many Jews been killed. On the other hand, the opposition would point out to the very recent EDSA revolution in the Philippine, (aka the people power revolution), where the people through civil resistance, managed to bring down the government in a span of three years, beginning in1983, and culminating in 1986. No guns were needed to get the job done through this non-violent revolution, would be the counter-argument put forth.
 
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Legislation of any sort can become less relevant, unnecessarily onerous or less effective over time and needs to be reviewed. I don't know the details of industry submissions for the NFA review but if the legislation be improved in any of those areas for delaers, shooters, clubs, etc it should be.

AFAIK the law in SA is as you say nebulous, and relates to a 12 month supply of ammo. I dare say it is deliberately nebulous and in being so provides shooters with plenty of leeway to to retain ample ammunition under any circumstances I can think of. If your local shop won't sell you 2000 rounds of ballistic .308 in one go well you'll just have to settle for 1000 rounds today and 1000 rounds tomorrow. Or go to two different shops. The reality is it prohibits very little.

To say most ammo used illegally is reloaded is a tenuous statement. I haven't seen any info on this but would be surprised if this was the case.

IMO further regulation should only be brought into effect in the event there is a good case (yes, what is a good case is always going to be debatable) for improving public safety, however regulations should be improved/altered/modified where possible for the reasons mentioned above e.g. to make them more efficient or less onerous on shooters and/or dealers, more relevant, more secure (information), more effective etc.
 


Mate I'm not sure what you're on about here - guns are a tool or sporting instrument depending on how they are used; some are in fact works of art. I get a lot of enjoyment out of shooting, owning and looking after my guns and it's a great social and sporting community. I also strongly believe in a right to self defense - guns are a true force equalizer as long as the user is capable of wielding it, whether the wielder is a 45kg, 140cm woman, or a 120kg muscle bound giant. That said, i do not own mine for that purpose, nor would they be used in that way. I don't feel any more secure for owning firearms - the opposite actually, as I have to always ensure that I'm following the law. You'll find that firearm owners are some of the most law abiding citizens out there, because we have to be.

I also think that a lot of the anti gun case is based on hyperbole and emotion, as well as a focus on statistical outliers (mass shootings). There's even a guide out there for hoplophobes to reference that makes specific mention of emphasizing the emotional aspect of it http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/748675/gun-violencemessaging-guide-pdf-1.pdf

You'll probably also find that most dictators prefer a disarmed civilian population, that wasn't exclusive to Hitler, though he was definitely in favour of gun control. I saw recently that Israeli citizens were being urged to carry firearms because of stabbings from Palestinian terrorists.

Honestly if the Democrats in the US REALLY wanted to be effective in curbing gun violence / deaths, they would extend the olive branch to both the NRA and Republicans to get some mutually agreed upon solutions, rather than using it as a way of further entrenching the divide between red and blue teams. At the end of the day, it's not really about that, so they won't.
 

I think it gives too much power to police to arbitrarily decide what is an 'excessive amount' Especially when it applies to dealers who have to go through even more scrutiny than firearms owners! Some people I shoot clays with buy shells by amounts up to half a pallet, because there is stuff all margin in 12ga shells and they are expensive to freight by the box. Same with the pistol guys who burn through hundreds of rounds of .22LR in one day at the range. Even the other day when I was shooting in one of my club comps I burned through 70 odd rounds of 30-06, which your average hunter might not go through for several years! The real regulating factor, especially with centrefire ammo, is that people can't afford to buy huge amounts of it. Most farming types I know of also bulk buy, because it just isn't worth their time to go to and fro to the gun shop.

I was saying that when crooks acquire firearms that were never legally registered, the ammo tends to come from the same source. Knowing our media, if the ammo did come from a legit source, it would be well broadcasted. To use the Lindt Cafe example again, Monis used 15-20 year old shells in the 50 year old, unregistered shotgun. I wasn't implying that crooks handload lol.


At the moment, any time something is suggested to make things more efficient or less bureaucratic overhead, Labor, the Greens and the media all start screaming about laws being "watered down". At least in Victoria our laws aren't as silly as say NSW or WA.
 

Mate I'm not sure what you're on about here
That makes two of us then, as I'm not sure what you're on about either. Thank you for the reply though, I appreciate it bozodos. Re those "Palestinian terrorists", I'd say what we really need here is an equal level playing field, where guns are met with guns; not knives!
 
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I think the wording has been left at 'a years supply' or something to that effect, which is deliberately ambiguous, to allow situations such as you mentioned to continue unimpeded rather than specifying an arbitrary amount as you suggested. With the exception of the Greens maybe, I think (most) legislators and police are realistic about firearms and their use.