Hack Squats or deficit deads for Deads assistance

[0ni]

Graham i am curious for your reasoning
I thought that as well but i think starting the lift from a dead stop and not being as deep has somehong to do with it. Tbh all that matters is if they HURT your knees

 

[Bazza20]

Graham i am curious for your reasoning
I thought that as well but i think starting the lift from a dead stop and not being as deep has somehong to do with it. Tbh all that matters is if they HURT your knees

Probably different kinds of stress. Some people more sensitive to the dead stop start stress of box squats and some to the bouncing stress of full squats.

 

[Chum]

Probably different kinds of stress. Some people more sensitive to the dead stop start stress of box squats and some to the bouncing stress of full squats.

Yeah i agree. dont see how any study can be relevant unless its done with a massive massive test group. everyones biomechanics are different and theyre all going to have different technique because of that. And the differing levers/technique/depth will have more an effect on knee stresses im sure than whether they squat to a box or not.

 

[The Hamburgler]

Graham i am curious for your reasoning
I thought that as well but i think starting the lift from a dead stop and not being as deep has somehong to do with it. Tbh all that matters is if they HURT your knees

The main thing (to me anyway) is the change in knee angle when box squatting vs a free squat

 

[0ni]

You have to take into account various shear forces also. I don't want to be part of the mental masturbation crew here but for example leg press has lots more shear forces than a squat, even when the knee angle remains roughly the same. I don't know much about it to say it one way or another though.

The main thing for me though is for many people the box squat mechanics are too different to the competition squat mechanics and will interfere with technique. I guess this is fine if you squat like a geared squatter. It also unloads the quads at the bottom which is the opposite of what happens in a regular squat. Konstantinovs seems to manage though as Graham rightly pointed out. He does them as a warm-up for his regular squatting though, so is reinforcing his squatting technique straight after. He also most likely did years of squatting, refining his technique before he started doing box squats

 

[The Hamburgler]

Whilst I definitely agree comp squats > box squats for improving a raw comp squat
Box squats can (not always) have a place in a program in the same way someone can use floor or incline press, rack pulls, good mornings etc

Personally I think they make a good off season exercise before switching back to normal squats leading into the competition

 

[0ni]

Yeah, those exercises tend not to interfere with mechanics though. I like the idea of off season training though

As an aside, what is the fasted method to increase my ability to move my knees out on the decent? I worked out all my mechanics (inb4 overthinking lol) and my squat would be better if I could move my knees out more, it would allow me to be more upright as at the moment I've kind of ran out of torso length as I sit back lol

 

[Darkoz]

Take laxatives before you squat, that'll get your knees moving

 

[0ni]

Those are some funny looking squats Darkoz

 

[Darkoz]

It's something I invented with you in mind

 

[callan]

rip oni

 

[vonfram88]

So much bullshit.

In a free squat there is a rapid change in direction. The speed of descent is greater in a free squat. Now there's a 1/2mv squared equation in here somewhere that disproves all the qualitative metaphysical google arguments about box squats being more stressful to the knee joint.

Put simply - ballistic rebounding out of a 100kg squat delivers more impact to the knee joint than descending to a controlled stop with twice that mass.

Also the angle on the knee joint is not as acute with a proper box squat, yet the lifter makes legal depth will all of the involvement of the hips, hammies and back. Making legal depth with a free squat usually involves the knee moving forwards, and there is greater opportunity for hyperflexion of the knee to occur. That is snapology territory.

 

[0ni]

>a 100kg squat puts more stress on the knees than a 200kg box squat

 

[vonfram88]

>a 100kg squat puts more stress on the knees than a 200kg box squat

That's a rather selective quote. Read it again.

And now answer the following riddle, batman;

Which of the following delivers the greatest impact energy

(1) A mass of 100 kg traveling at a velocity of 2 metres per second.

(2) A mass of 200kg traveling at velocity of 1 metre per second.

 

[Chisholm]

I don't care who or what you cite but there is no way in the world box squats stress the knees more than free squats

Define 'stress', presumably we are talking about shear force, which is probably most dangerous to the knee and surrounding tissue in terms of general injury risk and 'wear'. As opposed to say large compressive force on the knee when you are standing upright with the a barbell + X kilos. However, no one seems to get injured from this.

IMO box squats are worse than free squats, in terms of shear force. The reason for this is when doing box squats, getting up off the box tends to occur with the knee joint at approx 90 degrees, which means you are transitioning where maximum sheer force occurs. That's a simple high school engineering/forces principle.

In a free squat there is a rapid change in direction.

Also the angle on the knee joint is not as acute with a proper box squat, yet the lifter makes legal depth will all of the involvement of the hips, hammies and back. Making legal depth with a free squat usually involves the knee moving forwards, and there is greater opportunity for hyperflexion of the knee to occur. That is snapology territory.

First of all, that change in direction is really not very rapid at all. We aren't talking about massive multiplication of force like for example, when you heel strike at a full sprint.

In a free squat with decent depth, the knee joint is progressively unloaded towards the bottom portion of the lift as weight is distributed increasingly onto the hip. This transition is much less progressive in a box squat mainly because they tend to be quite high, e.g only as low as around parallel at best.

Knee going forward is a better distribution of sheer force than a vertical shin, this is because knee angle becomes more acute, which is a good thing.

I use them raw to reduce the amount of stress on the knees as my body can't handle too much ballistic transitioning any more

Again, a free squat to good depth is better terms of managing shear force, and ballistic transitioning with the speed we move at does really does not generate a great deal of force. However I imagine can imagine scenarios where box squats could help alleviate a problem, where sheer force is actually not the main issue, but something else is.

Also, doing box squats exerts a level of compressive force on the spine a free squat does it. Whether this really matters or not is another debate.

In summary:
- Don't be a pussy and do half squats, do full squats
- No doubt for PLing some people get a great training effect from box squatting. But lets not try to delude ourselves into thinking that it's somehow bio-mechanically safer.

 

[Darkoz]

Lifting weights is about engineering now

 

[Goosey]

How about this

Practice the squat and work the dead-lift

 

[Brick]

This argument amuses because of the sheer idiocy.

Quick visit to both members logs shows one is an old guy kicking arse with super basic programming and workouts the other is theorising out the arse for fuck all gains.

 

[0ni]

Jesus Christ even I haven't stooped to the level of working out velocity
Stress can't be calculated by velocity, quarter squats will kill the knees thanks to sheer forces. Louie Simmons has said that the box squat has just as much quad activation as a regular squat with the addition of more posterior chain despite the knee angle being much less (he linked to a Bell State Uni study).

 

[The Hamburgler]

The study was regarding wide stance squats not box squats