Frequency

[Rambodian]

IMO the average gym goer or BBer is of no chance of overtraining as their intensity and frequency just isnt there to overtrain

I agree with you there Neddy, but allot of peeps worry about it all the same. Probably more from being over hyped in magazines and such would be my guess.

I pose this question to you Neddy; What constitutes, in your opinion, being trained enough? as opposed to under trained or over trained.

IMO, this would be training with enough frequency, volume and intensity that allows you to still have measurable progress without having regression.


Web Definition of over training (I copy pasted this)
Over training is a physical, behavioral, and emotional condition that occurs when the volume and intensity of an individual's exercise exceeds their recovery capacity. They cease making progress, and can even begin to lose strength and fitness

But this goes out the window when injury occurs, as this simply makes you regress none the less. Would that be classed as exceeding ones recovery ability? I don't think so because in my own case I think it had more to do with form than anything else (hence I will see PTC boys when I go to bris next for a benching session LOL)

I make this conclusion because I have only been benching once every 7day week, so volume and frequency were not high IMO.

 

[Rambodian]

Also I've not managed to overtrain yet, despite my best efforts. I really wouldn't worry about it unless your doing shit loads of drop sets etc

No I'm not worried about it, just interested in your opinions, worthy of discussion IMO. Just sick of there being no decent discussion of training lately. Thought this would be a good topic to play with.

You have been training with incredible frequency and volume Oni, how has this affected your attitude to lifting now?
And what are your primary goals here? strength or bodybuilding? or both?
Interested in your reply mate.

 

[Bazza20]

I agree with that statement, but am interested in what people think, hence the discussion.
What I'm really after is the 'why' you think like this or that, what makes you have this ideology?

I have a program that I do and pretty much will stay the same but may change frequency/volume and or intensity to suit. The exercises won't change, just how I use them. This is why I am personally very interested in the 'why' people think and do their training a certain way.

In that case I like higher frequency. 2-3 times per week. For the reason I seem to get stronger quicker that way plus I like doing my favorite lifts more often than once a week.

 

[0ni]

My primary goals are strength but I have noticed some pretty awesome hypertrophy as well. At first my weight went down but now it's climbing again, I'm up at around 66kg at the moment, will probably aim to get up to 70kg then cut the fat off

How has it affected my attitude to lifting... that's a tough one because I never really thought of it. I guess I've stopped thinking about what's "optimal" and just try to have fun each workout and set a PR. I have a few sessions where I just don't feel like doing anything serious and the "need" to train serious is no longer there so I'll do arm stuff or strongman stuff on those days where in the past I'd force a workout out. The biggest difference is that I don't really think of what I can't do any more but what I can

 

[Rambodian]

In that case I like higher frequency. 2-3 times per week. For the reason I seem to get stronger quicker that way plus I like doing my favorite lifts more often than once a week.

This is a pattern I see many of the more experienced lifters talk about. Did you start this way Bazz, or end up training like that because the results were speaking for themselves?

 

[Rambodian]

The biggest difference is that I don't really think of what I can't do any more but what I can

That there is a dam good way to think mate, thanks for the insight. And I took note of not forcing a workout out, maybe I should take a leaf out of that there book boyo.

 

[rino60]

I currently lift with everything, once every 6 days. I found that I was simply craving to work out a body part after around 5 days, so thought I would reduce my rest time a little from the conventional once every 7 days . I was going to shorten it to once every 5 days, but i'll have to see how I go with this for a few months. I love it TBH.

I'll work Chest, Back, have a day off. Delts/Arms, Legs, have a day off. I love having those days off now, more than anything, so I think it will take piss poor results for me to change out of this split. If I had more time during each workout to spend in the gym, I would probably work out Upper, day off, lower, day off, upper, day off, ...

In my opinion (from how I started, and from watching others) a basic split involving full body exercises is a great option to get you started. Once you've done that, for a bodybuilding focus, you'll need to split up muscle groups and go to the basic once a week split until you allow your body and mind to learn these smaller 'assistance'/isolation exercises. Slowly increase the frequency and regroup components until you're either meeting the limits of your recovery or spending too much time in the gym for each session.

But, this obviously varies from person to person. I just think that if you had to make a recommendation to a person sight unseen, no information provided, that'd be the best, all encompassing suggestion.

 

[Bazza20]

This is a pattern I see many of the more experienced lifters talk about. Did you start this way Bazz, or end up training like that because the results were speaking for themselves?

I started lifting with the main goal of bigger muscles. Did the once a week BB type workout and i just didnt enjoy them, made it hard to stick to it. Never liked a lot of fluff in workouts. Realised I like getting strong and to my suprise had the best muscle growth when I just focused on getting stronger.

 

[Rambodian]

I currently lift with everything, once every 6 days. I found that I was simply craving to work out a body part after around 5 days, so thought I would reduce my rest time a little from the conventional once every 7 days . I was going to shorten it to once every 5 days, but i'll have to see how I go with this for a few months. I love it TBH.

I'll work Chest, Back, have a day off. Delts/Arms, Legs, have a day off. I love having those days off now, more than anything, so I think it will take piss poor results for me to change out of this split. If I had more time during each workout to spend in the gym, I would probably work out Upper, day off, lower, day off, upper, day off, ...

In my opinion (from how I started, and from watching others) a basic split involving full body exercises is a great option to get you started. Once you've done that, for a bodybuilding focus, you'll need to split up muscle groups and go to the basic once a week split until you allow your body and mind to learn these smaller 'assistance'/isolation exercises. Slowly increase the frequency and regroup components until you're either meeting the limits of your recovery or spending too much time in the gym for each session.

But, this obviously varies from person to person. I just think that if you had to make a recommendation to a person sight unseen, no information provided, that'd be the best, all encompassing suggestion.

Yeh that's a pretty good bit of advice there rino, I started on the full body 3 times aweek and TBH made shit loads of progress on that.

Just curious as to why you think you need to slowely bring it down to once every 5 days. Is this just something you are finding as you progress with your once every 6 days training? Like you can feel you need the extra time at the moment? Or are you simply thinking that to contiue to progress you will need extra frequency as you adapt?
It's funny because all the studies that I read say that beginners should have the highest frequency, but when I chat to experianced lifters, they are the ones with the highest frequency lol. There is always something that flies in the face of a study huh.

This is something I am definitely curious about, how does one know when they are healed and ready? Bazz already said no one knows, and shouldn't, so I guess from that you can decipher a 'time under the bar' approach to lifting.
I think I agree with Bazz on that, I have learned more from just simply training than anything else......Yet I still learn allot from reading and discussion as well, but way more from the 'doing'.

 

[RyanF]

There's obviously no absolutes here. The way I understand it, noobs do well at a relatively high frequency for bbing purposes because their tolerance for both volume and intensity is fairly low, while their ability to recover and progress is quite high, so only doing a couple sets of 1-2 exercises per bodypart several times per week is quite sufficient.

As a person progresses, my understanding is that the workload required to optimally stimulate growth increases, and so just doing 1-5 sets per body part at a moderate intensity no longer cuts it. More volume and/or intensity is needed to continue seeing results. This results in more time being spent on each body part and eventually on each muscle group. I'm not convinced that training a body part only once per week is biologically optimal for anyone, however when it takes you an hour hammering away at a muscle to do enough to stimulate further growth, it becomes impractical to train the same muscle groups as frequently as what could have be done before. I don't think it's a (muscular) recovery thing so much as it's an "I don't want to spend 8 hours a day in the gym" thing.

Obviously I don't have the personal experience to back that up, but then again, even if I did, results vary from person to person, and what might be awesome for me at that level could very well be failtastic for someone else at that same level, and vice versa.

 

[Rambodian]

There's obviously no absolutes here. The way I understand it, noobs do well at a relatively high frequency for bbing purposes because their tolerance for both volume and intensity is fairly low, while their ability to recover and progress is quite high, so only doing a couple sets of 1-2 exercises per bodypart several times per week is quite sufficient.

As a person progresses, my understanding is that the workload required to optimally stimulate growth increases, and so just doing 1-5 sets per body part at a moderate intensity no longer cuts it. More volume and/or intensity is needed to continue seeing results. This results in more time being spent on each body part and eventually on each muscle group. I'm not convinced that training a body part only once per week is biologically optimal for anyone, however when it takes you an hour hammering away at a muscle to do enough to stimulate further growth, it becomes impractical to train the same muscle groups as frequently as what could have be done before. I don't think it's a (muscular) recovery thing so much as it's an "I don't want to spend 8 hours a day in the gym" thing.

Obviously I don't have the personal experience to back that up, but then again, even if I did, results vary from person to person, and what might be awesome for me at that level could very well be failtastic for someone else at that same level, and vice versa.

I think your right mate, it's not one size fits all is it. So how are you training now and why? (In terms of frequency. volume. intensity) Is it based on what you have learned so far or the advice you have been given?
I think I have come to a similar conclusion to you, but like you I have some but not allot of personal experience either.

 

[D1cko]

I reckon everyone is different, ...some can train every day, some can't for different reasons.

I think if you didn't have a job and other commitments outside lifting, you could train everyday and put more focus into recovery. When you have to juggle work, kids, family etc...then I don't think you could just eat, sleep, train and repeat.

 

[Goosey]

Big bodies have been built using all methods.
Progression is key.
HIT is more to do with effacy than anything else.

The amount of time one works out versus how quick one recovers is personal.

 

[dave]

Higher frequency will build better neural pathways which means faster strength gains. Size wise has been covered by others already. Changes in volume and intensity due to higher frequency have also been discussed well.

 

[RyanF]

I think your right mate, it's not one size fits all is it. So how are you training now and why? (In terms of frequency. volume. intensity) Is it based on what you have learned so far or the advice you have been given?
I think I have come to a similar conclusion to you, but like you I have some but not allot of personal experience either.

I don't train as a bber, but my program over the last 5 weeks has basically been squatting 4 days a week (back squat on Mon/Fri, F.Sq on Wed/Sat), with volume on Mon and Wed and hitting a new PR on Fri and Sat. I follow up back squats with power cleans and high pulls, and front squats with power shrugs and goodmornings. Then on Mon/Wed/Fri I do (M) BP 1x1 then back off for volume, (W) Incline DBBP (the only exercise I do in much of a bbing fashion), dips and rows, (F) BP 1x3 with Mon's single. I also do pull ups between sets of other exercises on M/F. For squats and BP, even my volume work is still fairly low volume, just an extra 8-10 reps.

I squat 4 days per week pretty much just to try and get PR's slightly more frequently. So far so good on that side of things, although my knees have been asking me for a deload, so I'll be backing off the intensity a bit next week. I bench twice a week for the same reason that I do each squat variation twice a week, and do inclines and dips as some muscle building assistance work. Rows and pull ups are for general upper back/shoulder strength and health. Power cleans, high pulls, power shrugs and goodmornings are all pretty much DL assistance work, taking the idea from Bill Starr's program for improving your DL without doing the DL. I have no idea yet whether this is actually boosting my DL at all (it probably isn't yet, since I suck so bad at power shrugs), but I can't progress well on DL without using mixed grip, and I don't like the uneven way in which my back grows when I use the mixed grip, so I'd prefer to save it just for testing 1RMs. Either way I'm having fun with these exercises, which is more than I can say for when I deadlift heavy enough for it to matter.

No one recommended any of this to me, per se. I've just spent a lot of time acquiring information, and right now I'm testing it out, seeing how I go at getting stronger while trying to minimise my time in the the gym (partially because I now go to the gym with my older brother, who's much less enthusiastic about it than I am and I don't want to make him wait around for me associating the gym with boredom; and partially because I don't want to be hooked on training habits that interfere with study when I go to uni next semester, work when I become employable, or family life down the line when I have a wife and children to take into consideration).

 

[Rambodian]

I don't want to be hooked on training habits that interfere with study when I go to uni next semester, work when I become employable, or family life down the line when I have a wife and children to take into consideration).

This is something that I can totally understand, when I try to increase frequency I always end up missing workouts due to all of the above. But especially work and study, the family s easy as I train at home now. It sounds stupid, but training at home only helped a little with my consistency. I find sometimes that I just don't feel like smashing a session in the weight room (my shed lol) because I am just stuffed TBH. So i can understand setting up a program of training that is better suited. It's probably the main reason i went back to only 3 days a week, but I really need to sort out some more frequency IMO. Something Bazza said about getting bad doms when you don't have the frequency, this I can attest to, after a few weeks back on 3 days a week my doms grew considerably.

 

[rino60]

Just curious as to why you think you need to slowely bring it down to once every 5 days

Maybe I wasn't too clear. I think the more you can increase your frequency, while still achieving the intensity that you want in each session, the better.

Me personally, I know that I can handle once every six days with no I'll effects - no loss of strength, no DOMS, no tightness in the muscle (unless injured) etc.

I will continue to increase this frequency until I'm struggling to maintain form, strength and gains.

Regardless of whether you're training for strength or hypertrophy, most lifters will agree that increased frequency (to a practical limit) is of a pretty good advantage. So work with the highest frequency you can handle for your goals and intensity

 

[Rambodian]

Higher frequency will build better neural pathways which means faster strength gains. Size wise has been covered by others already. Changes in volume and intensity due to higher frequency have also been discussed well.

Do you think building neural pathways by using higher frequency is doable whilst concentrating on hypertrophy at the same time?

By training different rep ranges in the week with compound lifts to stimulate strength gains through the neural system and then stimulating hypertrophy with higher reps, could it be the best of both worlds?
With your experience of day to day training of others, is it possible? or a little far fetched?

 

[Rambodian]

Regardless of whether you're training for strength or hypertrophy, most lifters will agree that increased frequency (to a practical limit) is of a pretty good advantage. So work with the highest frequency you can handle for your goals and intensity

I think that's a pretty good way to go about it, I guess one must really listen to the body and work out what suits them the best.

The word 'balance' comes to mind

But finding that balance can be infuriating sometimes.

 

[rino60]

Oh, absolutely. I've been at it for nearly two years now, and while I'm a lot closer to achieving balance, it will never be perfect. I just wish there was a different number of days in a week than 7.. 7 is a useless number.