Benching

[0ni]

They do flex the shoulder, but since muscles can only contract or relax, If the biceps were doing any real shoulder flexion work in the bench, it would make the elbow extension pretty hard.

That is a very good and overlooked point. It's my understanding that they are (obviously) not a main mover but they contract at one end and relax at the other. Same deal with the hamstrings in the squat, the hamstring aid a fair bit in hip extension but do not get in the way of knee extension. They are lengthening and shortening at the same time. Do I think you can curl your way to a bigger bench? I think it can only help, especially if your arms are tiny like mine

 

[Darkoz]

Biceps flex the shoulder rather... flexion still being the action in the bench press

Shoulder Articulations

No muscle can work in complete isolation to other muscles but think about the primary purpose of the biceps Oni and don't be silly trying to tell me that the biceps is a mover in the bench.

 

[0ni]

I didn't say that the muscle works in isolation
Curls and strong biceps will improve your bench press. I don't even know how you can dispute this
Wendler says that doing curls is good for the bench and even grip work is good for the bench
Eric Spoto claims that his big biceps are a major factor in the bench
Both Paul Carter and Mark Bell have said the biceps act as cushions for the bottom of the bench and improving the start of the bench

 

[strong enough?]

Some smart cookies have thought to hook up EMG to different muscles in the bench press and guess what, there is biceps activation, particularly in the bottom position. Reverse grip was being discussed the other day. Reverse grip produces greater biceps activation levels.

If your biceps are big enough (we're talking SHW), they can actually give a mechanical advantage as they will give your forearms something to bounce off.

 

[Chum]

I don't think bigger biceps can be a bad thing.

The squat example is wrong. Muscles cant lengthen and shorten at the same time. It's about net lengthening, a muscle that is stretched will want to contract, if its not stretched at the end of the eccentric, it won't be a prime mover.

There is an arguement that hamstrings only activate in a deeper squat where there is a net lengthening. In the squat the hamstrings pull the tibia posteriorly to anchor it against the anterior pull of the quads, allowing the hamstrings to continue contracting to extend the hip. I think rippetoe wrote about this.

The difference in the bench example is that the biceps won't be stretched to the same degree as the hamstrings would be in the bottom of a squat and so will have no reason to contract.

Does that make sense?

 

[Chum]

Some smart cookies have thought to hook up EMG to different muscles in the bench press and guess what, there is biceps activation, particularly in the bottom position. Reverse grip was being discussed the other day. Reverse grip produces greater biceps activation levels.

If your biceps are big enough (we're talking SHW), they can actually give a mechanical advantage as they will give your forearms something to bounce off.

There is a BIG difference between activation and being a prime mover. I can't think of any major muscles in my whole body that wouldn't be activated to some extent in the benchpress.

 

[strong enough?]

In defence of Oni, he explicitly said he doesn't think the biceps are a prime mover.

The abs aren't a prime mover in the squat or the deadlift, but if activation levels are low or the abs are weak, you get a poor movement.

Lats aren't a prime mover in the bench either, but they are significantly involved and you need strong lats for a big bench.

 

[0ni]

I don't think bigger biceps can be a bad thing.

The squat example is wrong. Muscles cant lengthen and shorten at the same time. It's about net lengthening, a muscle that is stretched will want to contract, if its not stretched at the end of the eccentric, it won't be a prime mover.

There is an arguement that hamstrings only activate in a deeper squat where there is a net lengthening. In the squat the hamstrings pull the tibia posteriorly to anchor it against the anterior pull of the quads, allowing the hamstrings to continue contracting to extend the hip. I think rippetoe wrote about this.

The difference in the bench example is that the biceps won't be stretched to the same degree as the hamstrings would be in the bottom of a squat and so will have no reason to contract.

Does that make sense?

Almost makes sense, still a little unsure about a few things though.
One head does shorten while the other head lengthens. You mention net lengthening, is that just for it to be a prime mover? EXRX labels them as a "dynamic stabiliser". I don't think that the biceps are a prime mover at all but I do believe that increasing biceps strength will increase performance on the bench press if you have small biceps to begin with

 

[Chum]

I know, i'm just trying to explain the multijoint muscle thing, because its interesting, relevant and Oni mentioned the contracting at one end and relaxing at the other.

Also i'm practicing putting this into words, its one of those things that i understand but can hardly ever successfully explain to people, but i think i did a good job here.

 

[Zoot]

Of late, benching has been causing a minor niggle in my bicep to flare up, nearly at the midpoint. I would have thought that other muscles would have given me grief before a bicep started complaining, but it's reliably repeatable, (unfortunately)

 

[Chum]

Almost makes sense, still a little unsure about a few things though.
One head does shorten while the other head lengthens. You mention net lengthening, is that just for it to be a prime mover? EXRX labels them as a "dynamic stabiliser". I don't think that the biceps are a prime mover at all but I do believe that increasing biceps strength will increase performance on the bench press if you have small biceps to begin with

When you talk about heads, what are you referring to exactly?

I mean semitendinosis, semimembranosis, and biceps femoris ( long head) since these are the ones that cross the hip joint. The long head of BF doesn't and is irrelevant to the equation because even though it shares an insertion with the long head, its innervated differently.

 

[0ni]

Probably just some knotting zoot
Get a golf ball in there and under your arm pit

 

[0ni]

When you talk about heads, what are you referring to exactly?

I mean semitendinosis, semimembranosis, and biceps femoris ( long head) since these are the ones that cross the hip joint. The long head of BF doesn't and is irrelevant to the equation because even though it shares an insertion with the long head, its innervated differently.

RE the biceps brachii, both heads. In the bench press the long head lengthens while the short head shortens

 

[Chum]

Ah we're back to the biceps, my bad. So the short head of the bicep isn't relevant to this because it only crosses the elbow. The long head is lengthened due to humeral extension and pronation, and shortened because of the elbow flexion. I'm not saying its not going to be activated, but I think the extent of stretching is going to be far less than that of the hamstrings in the deep squat example, and so they won't perform any real work.

Edit: Just realised both heads cross the shoulder joint. the whole "short head" thing is pretty confusing.

 

[0ni]

So you're saying that a muscle that doesn't change in length through a range of motion won't do much work unless it's stretched?

 

[Chum]

Yeah, pretty much, but to varying degrees, i don't think its on/off. Obviously its complicated with compound movements, but think of why people say incline curls are the best for bicep isolation, because you have humeral extension, and elbow extension, so its really stretched at the bottom and maximally contracted at the top.

 

[ink81]

I'd be more worried if my back and tri's had grown an inch and my bench didn't increase, biceps only play a minor part in benching, and the comment from Spoto about biceps helping is because at the bottom of his bench his arms are so big they cushion against his forearms and act like a small spring.

 

[nazzysmith]

Interesting discussion fellas....

Now go find a bench and barbell and start lifting!!!

 

[The Hamburgler]

I'd be more worried if my back and tri's had grown an inch and my bench didn't increase, biceps only play a minor part in benching, and the comment from Spoto about biceps helping is because at the bottom of his bench his arms are so big they cushion against his forearms and act like a small spring.

Lilly has said the exact same thing

 

[0ni]

I did say that it was mainly my triceps that had grown
I even posted pictures in my log and Darkoz was like "good triceps growth there!!"