Atheists, perhaps it's you, and not God, who truly do not exist.

[spartacus]

thanks fadi, i know you are a good man, and that is all that counts despite our eclectic opinions.

 

[vonfram88]

!)i have already referred to days when religious stooges sanctioned top down rule and supported absolute monarchies. Not really interested in discussing so-called past great days of any culture. Most of it is glorified bs, including by the West, although i love western culture. I am someone who does not want to live in the past.



I think even many species of animals know it is wrong to have sex with siblings. I could be wrong on this.
To conclude, let us hope that us westerners never abandon the separation of the state and religion.

Youre living in the past every time parliament opens with the Protestant version of the Lords Prayer. The greens and other degenerates tried to have that removed but it would seem that those pesky representatives that all Australians elect had a different view.....perhaps representative of the view of the voters?

the secular evolution is not working. Extreme themes like gay marriage are shut down 96 to 44 in the lower house and not even allowed passage to the upper house. We are still basically a nation of decent people, grounded in religion.

If we abandon those tenets of the "religious stooges" then we really are on a slippery slope to free love, legal narcotics and state sanctioned euthanasia.

Have a look at what that degenerate Penny Wong pushed through in the dying days of the left wing government; now we have to endure a multi million dollar tax payer funded television campaign on discrimination against GLBT children in schools.

Its horrific and internally inconsistent since under the laws of this land, minors do not have sexuality nor a sexual identity. I don't even have to invoke passages from the scriptures to demonstrate that the sexualising of minors is just plain wrong in the context of the laws of the land that are designed to protect minors. Dare I speak out against this - and be labelled as a homophobe and religious zealot. Whatever. I had a debate with some queer sympathiser recently who told me that up to 10% of the population is GLBT. He refused to accept that the census shows 0.6% nationwide have admitted to living in same sex relationships. It's even lower than that in WA.

What the fuck is GLBT anyway - it has a B in it which is the antithesis of a stable family unit. Most Australians want a stable family, whatever guise that may be in. Except homo marriages. If the argument is they are born that way, then they should die that way without adopting kids or surrogacy or other stupid shit, since in nature they are meant to snuff out in one generation. But no, we abandon religion because it might offend some minority group the instant there is an overtone of traditional values in any debate.

 

[ride29er]

I was more than clear in putting forward my question to you, yet you seem to have totally avoided its subject matter. I was using your logic and I informed you of that fact. Even though I disagree with your logic, I was using it for the basis of my question to you. So again, if God is to be blamed for the evil, who is to be praised for the good? Again, I'm using your logic and not mine. If you don't wish to answer the question, then that is fine with me, but I am hoping you would at least consider it. Thank you.

Well I don't believe in any high and mighty above us so arguing who's to blame for what would be arguing a logic I have no belief in, so short answer is in my opinion no one is to blame for the good or the evil in this world, I don't believe there is a god or a devil or a heaven or hell, I think we live then we die and that's that, but like I said earlier on the idea of God and the affect this belief has on some people is amazing, I have friends who's child has died and they have found comfort in the idea there baby is pain free and in a safe place now and one day they will be reunited, I also had a 3 hr conversation with a customer about 12month back who swears black and blue he came face to face with God himself on his darkest hour and it gave him the willpower to get off the drugs and get his life back on track, this is the kind of stuff that blows me away, it shows how powerful a simple belief can be, but I myself do not share this belief

 

[craze]

Ive got my beliefs, everyone has theres, life goes on.....

 

[Fadi]

Well I don't believe in any high and mighty above us so arguing who's to blame for what would be arguing a logic I have no belief in, so short answer is in my opinion no one is to blame for the good or the evil in this world, I don't believe there is a god or a devil or a heaven or hell, I think we live then we die and that's that, but like I said earlier on the idea of God and the affect this belief has on some people is amazing, I have friends who's child has died and they have found comfort in the idea there baby is pain free and in a safe place now and one day they will be reunited, I also had a 3 hr conversation with a customer about 12month back who swears black and blue he came face to face with God himself on his darkest hour and it gave him the willpower to get off the drugs and get his life back on track, this is the kind of stuff that blows me away, it shows how powerful a simple belief can be, but I myself do not share this belief

I thank you for replying. Now I formulated my question based on this statement which you made earlier on in the piece.

I have seen some of the kindest people I have ever met get eaten alive by cancer, I came to the conclusion then that even if there is a god he is in no way worthy of worshiping or following, to much evil in this world

I fully understand that you do not believe in God. However you have come to a conclusion that even if there was to be a god, he would not be worthy of your worshipping, and you based your conclusion on the suffering and evil that you have witnessed. Hence my question. If because of the evil and suffering, you decided this god (if he did exist), was not worth worshipping, my question was/is, would he be worth worshipping when you see the good that is also occurring in the world? Or do you only bring god into the equation when you see evil? Basically the flip side of the same coin (using your own logic).

 

[Darkoz]

....... A druggie that saw God, no way!

 

[Jungnaut]

Religion and science should co-exist peacefully, wouldn't the world be a better place if there wasn't such a divide.

 

[ride29er]

I thank you for replying. Now I formulated my question based on this statement which you made earlier on in the piece. I fully understand that you do not believe in God. However you have come to a conclusion that even if there was to be a god, he would not be worthy of your worshipping, and you based your conclusion on the suffering and evil that you have witnessed. Hence my question. If because of the evil and suffering, you decided this god (if he did exist), was not worth worshipping, my question was/is, would he be worth worshipping when you see the good that is also occurring in the world? Or do you only bring god into the equation when you see evil? Basically the flip side of the same coin (using your own logic).

In my opinion the bad outweighs the good in this world and yeah I could thank god for my healthy children happy marriage and healthy income, but than I watch the bad shit that happens daily to others, good people getting bashed/shot/getting sick, school shootings, group beheadings, country's starving, I mean look at 911, nearly 3000 people with lifetimes of memorys and moments gone, and 90% of them good people with loving family's gone in the matter of an an hour, I would love to ignore this and live my life thanking God for the meal on my table but I just don't think good deeds can erase the bad ones and I apologise if my opinion offends you as I certainly do not intend to

 

[Fadi]

In my opinion the bad outweighs the good in this world and yeah I could thank god for my healthy children happy marriage and healthy income, but than I watch the bad shit that happens daily to others, good people getting bashed/shot/getting sick, school shootings, group beheadings, country's starving, I mean look at 911, nearly 3000 people with lifetimes of memorys and moments gone, and 90% of them good people with loving family's gone in the matter of an an hour, I would love to ignore this and live my life thanking God for the meal on my table but I just don't think good deeds can erase the bad ones and I apologise if my opinion offends you as I certainly do not intend to

Oh brother your opinion does not offend me in the least. After all I asked you for it. I sincerely thank you for sharing your thoughts with me Sir, I really do!

 

[vonfram88]

Religion and science should co-exist peacefully, wouldn't the world be a better place if there wasn't such a divide.

Its easier for those who have walked both paths to understand how faith and constructs of the human mind can co-exist. Often those who have walked neither have the greatest trouble in reconciling them.

 

[Stiffy]

I used to be an atheist then I was bashed to within an inch of my life one night. I found God, I remember the exact moment all that religion cam flooding back to me a few seconds after I regained consciousness in a hospital bed in the emergency ward.

I have since lost my religion a few times but always find it when the chips are down. Once you've had the epiphany you stop fighting so hard.

An atheist is just a man who hasn't found his God because he has lead a life of privilidge and has never truly been challenged, I pity those men.

This is great Brother Brick. How long have you accepted Jesus Christ as your savior? Would you like to lead us in prayer from time to time, perhaps commence an Ausbb Bible Study group?

 

[Fister Roboto]

I get how for some people, in times of despair, having faith to rely on is a comfort.

Personally, I'd rather not accept that any external forces have an influence on my course through life. Seems like a bit of a cop out.

 

[Headley]

Its easier for those who have walked both paths to understand how faith and constructs of the human mind can co-exist. Often those who have walked neither have the greatest trouble in reconciling them.

It sure is.

That's why i think christianity is a complete waste of time and effort. I was a christian but i woke up.

I have no issues what so ever in people practicing their faith so long as it does not influence me or what i do with my time and effort.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Sir El Stiffy again.

 

[Darkoz]

Look, the problem with most christians, at least the one's I know, is that their ignorance is at times astounding.

 

[onslaught]

I would consider myself agnostic and I believe it is arrogant in the extreme to be absolute in your belief at either end of the spectrum without considering the other.

 

[Fadi]

I get how for some people, in times of despair, having faith to rely on is a comfort.

Personally, I'd rather not accept that any external forces have an influence on my course through life. Seems like a bit of a cop out.

I've read this "bit of a cop out" conclusion by few members in this thread so far, and I gave it some thoughts. Here's my conclusion regarding your conclusion.

A "cop out" I thought, has two paths it can take, a) the temporal or materialistic path, or b) the immaterial or spiritual path.

The first "cop out" may see that desperate person turning to (say) music, alcohol, sport, reading, or whatever would provide some temporal type of comfort or relief at those "times of despair". Obviously, some of those outlets I mentioned are better than others (in terms of health and wellbeing).

The second "cop out" according to some atheists who are pointing the finger at the theists, has a deeper and more of a condescending, demeaning, and a judgmental meaning behind it. Here the atheist (like Richard Dawkins for example) is saying, "Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence." Of course as a believer, I totally reject such an assumption, and in turn, would ask the atheist to look beyond what can only be observed by our physical eyes. Here the atheist would object and demand some sort of proof (based on evidence) that can be tested using the scientific method. When the theist suggests that there is another method (apart from the scientific method) that one can also apply to arrive at an undoubtful conclusion, a method where logic and rational is applied; the atheist is not satisfied. He (the atheist) wants to see it, wants to observe it if he is to test it. Okay then, observe the matter wave I say, a wave unlike the electromagnetic and mechanical waves, this matter wave does not have any physical parallelism and it is purely abstract in nature, a bit like ummm...., your name and mine really Fister Roboto. Our names do not have a physical quantity that can be measured, but we have them! There are many gases all around us, even though we can not see them, we can not say they don't exist, since we can observe their effects.

If the above is a bit heavy, how about your great great (x20 or so) grandmother...., can you see her, any observable evidence of her you can produce for us pointing to her? You may say no, she's been long gone. But wait, here's me! I, I am the proof she was there all those long years ago. And that would be precisely right. Your existence proves to me that someone all those years ago, caused you to come into existence. From here, we now move onto our logical argument for the existence of God and the first cause. I won't go into it, but it suffices to say that as you can see, I am using my brain to arrive at a logical conclusion to the existence of a god (not calling him God) yet. My approach you must admit, is far from being a "cop out", as has been suggested by you and Richard Dawkins, in as far as "evading the need to think", since I am thinking!

 

[Arfwit]

That is a special kind of logic.

 

[Fadi]

That is a special kind of logic.

"Special" doesn't tell me much. Are you disagreeing? I have no problem with people disagreeing, it's your right. Are you suggesting that there's only one method we can use, that being the scientific method? Are you saying no to using the logical/rational method? I've already written about some of today's scientist trying to go beyond the Big Bang (observable) expansion of the universe theory, suggesting a universe from nothing.

You've made a comment in post #34, which I responded to (instead of react to) in post #35. Did you read my response?

 

[wingman]

I've never seen my brain before and neither has anyone else, so there's no proof that it exists.
There is however empirical evidence that it exists. There's no empirical evidence of a god. Most (when I say most I mean Christians as thats what was pushed onto me as a child) are just going by the 'you have to believe'. Well I believed in Santa Claus too and got presents. When I outed my parents I no longer did. So there's that.

Seperate to that. One question I have is, why do different religions have a different recollection of events, eg Jews, Christians, Catholics, Jehovah Witnesses, Muslims all have a slightly different story. Which one is right? That in itself invalidates all of them because it makes it seem like old wives tales

 

[C_T]

i believe that "copout" isn't the scenario that covers the people in syd i see of muslim who do what they do, and its bad! walk through the wrong neighbourhood at night and see for yourself.

thats not the copout i would refer to however, since mostly these people have awesome family support and arn't poor.