First cycle, 400mg Test E

[spartacus]

you said

400mg of test straight up will work well for a few weeks then fail to produce further results

This is bs. benefit does not peak in 2 weeks.

 

[Achilles]

Keep your diet clean. The problem I have seen a lot is when people are on cycle they tend to over eat. They end up looking like a blimp.
Any reason why you wouldn't run 500mg pw? Which is normally standard for a first cycle.

Would 600 cals over maintenance be a reasonable number? I'm aiming for 1.5g/lb bodyweight protein, and around 100g fat with the rest coming from carbs. Whole foods will make up the vast majority of calorie intake with some protein coming from WPI.

As for the 400mg/wk decision; I'm looking at Nordicor or UGLOZ Test E, both of which are 250mg/ml in a 10ml vial. 2 vials (5000mg)/12 weeks = 400mg/week. I've read a lot of "first cycle" posts, and 400-500mg seem to be the most common suggestions. Apparently there is not much of a difference between 400 and 500mg. If there is, however, I'd pick up a third vial and go for 500mg/week. What are your thoughts on this?

Cheers

 

[0ni]

you said

400mg of test straight up will work well for a few weeks then fail to produce further results

This is bs. benefit does not peak in 2 weeks.

A new previously uknown form of autism right here folks

 

[spartacus]

you a turd oni, I suppose being on a forum allows you to call me autistic. Tough guy on a forum, are you not.

 

[Achilles]

Well there are so many supporting supplements is hard to tell how they will all react when you throw them all in together. Deca is pretty mild, moreso than test so you should be fine with it. 400mg of test doesnt get the results people want which is why so many people run this and make hardly any progress. Just take a look at the majority of logs and youll see peoples gains will slow around the 6 week mark from estrogens and cortisols getting kicked up.

Spartacus, this guy isnt a pro, who gives a fuck what a pros cycle looks like

Assuming it's estrogen and cortisol halting gains, would it be fair to assume that controlling these would prevent this stall from occurring?

 

[spartacus]

Achilles, do you even compete, why do you bother with drugs?

In my former training days with bb's, including a few sessions with some of Aust's best, there was a lot of talk abut the latest great ideas about drugs from Dan duchaine. he died at age 48, as did one of the top Aust bodybuilders I knew reasonably well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Duchaine

Achilles, don't do drugs, but if you do keep it basic. Listen to actual bodybuilders, preferably ones that have been around. Oni is not much bigger than a runt, despite all the dianabol and drugs he took when a cyclist.

for example, tom platz, a former no. 2 bodybuilder in world, whose left thigh looks heavier than oni, said

'At one time, I was using about 130mg a day. That was way too much for me. I've had my greatest success on less than 30 mg per day'.

http://www.trulyhuge.com/forum/71.html

John Kuc, one of the greatest powerlifters of all time, and one of the first to admit he took steroids, never took more than 20mg of dianabol a day (his claim). But Oni (guru puny) knows best, you need to take more.

 

[0ni]

Assuming it's estrogen and cortisol halting gains, would it be fair to assume that controlling these would prevent this stall from occurring?

Yep, estrogen is easy to control but cortisol requires more harsh drugs.
The anti cortisol drugs (that acutally work) work by stopping the conversion of cholesterol to hormones. So that's ALL hormones. Estrogens, cortisols, testosterone etc. This means that the only hormones you have are the ones you shove in your body so you will need to start taking cortisol on this drug and estrogen is good for gains... just not too much. So it's not really recommended unless you're a top level athlete. You may as well just swap drugs in and out, it's not as if it costs any more and limits the number of drugs that you're taking

 

[spartacus]

How do you know this Alex? is this something you read?

alex, why does he need to take so much that he needs to deal with high estrogen levels?

Isn't this guy a novice on his first cycle?

alex, should you not be more responsible with your advice.

 

[0ni]

Achilles, do you even compete, why do you bother with drugs?

In my former training days with bb's, including a few sessions with some of Aust's best, there was a lot of talk abut the latest great ideas about drugs from Dan duchaine. he died at age 48, as did one of the top Aust bodybuilders I knew reasonably well.

Dan Duchaine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Achilles, don't do drugs, but if you do keep it basic. Listen to actual bodybuilders, preferably ones that have been around. Oni is not much bigger than a runt, despite all the dianabol and drugs he took when a cyclist.

for example, tom platz, a former no. 2 bodybuilder in world, whose left thigh looks heavier than oni, said

'At one time, I was using about 130mg a day. That was way too much for me. I've had my greatest success on less than 30 mg per day'.

Tom Platz Bodybuilder Interview

John Kuc, one of the greatest powerlifters of all time, and one of the first to admit he took steroids, never took more than 20mg of dianabol a day (his claim). But Oni (guru puny) knows best, you need to take more.

See this is why I call you autistic. You take things at absolute face value and have no ability to read into things. I said hormones lose their ability after a few weeks. Not TWO weeks, a few. Not a couple, not two- a few. Normally around 6 weeks AS I SAID EARLIER

AS I SAID EARLIER and so many times it's simply amusing that I have to repeat myself- 30mg of dbol is a great dose and what I recommended in the first place. REAL dianabol. Most of the shit you'll find is underdosed unless you're very lucky. This is why these days you need to take MORE because the quality isn't as good. See where 30mg of UGL dbol a day gets you. If you posted that up people would tell you that you're wasting your fucking time. I took dbol 6 years ago for a few weeks when I competed in cycling? I should be JACKED obviously haha. Just like every other elite level cyclist

I will even BUY you the books that you need sparticus so you learn basic shit and stop coming into threads with your anti drug propaganda parroting useless shit like low dose testosterone only cycles. Do you know how many people contact me on facebook complaining and bitching about the stupid shit you write? I just want to put an end to it. Either read up on your shit or stop posting about how you disagree with something just because Bob Hoffman did it different back in the 70s

 

[0ni]

How do you know this Alex? is this something you read?

alex, why does he need to take so much that he needs to deal with high estrogen levels?

Isn't this guy a novice on his first cycle?

The body will kick up estrogen and cortisol at ANY dose after several weeks of elevation. It's maintaining homoeostasis, this is it's job

As I apparently need to fucking keep repeating myself- it's in Anabolics 8-10th edition by William Llwellen and also in L Rea's books. Clint Darden has covered it often, it's also in the usage guides on steroid.com and most of these apart from Clint's vids are fully cited

 

[spartacus]

Alex, I could not care less about people who contact you about shit I write. They can speak for themselves; why would they go through you (a puny guru).

Like I said, who the fuck are you to give advice on drugs? My opinion is you don't know what you are talking about, and a novice should not listen to you, never mind PEDs.

Fact is that smaller doses achieve most of the gains, and any sensible person should adhere to that principle.

 

[Shrek]

If your so anti drugs why do you care if this guy takes it or not?
The OP can do his own research through here and other sites to determine his path of choice.


Sent from my iPod touch from Pluto

 

[spartacus]

I don't care. I was merely responding to Oni's supposed mastery of how to take drugs in terms of what he recommends to a novice.

In any case, AUSBB gives the right for people to talk about drugs, it should also give the right for people to argue against them.

Hasn't this site got a responsibility to be moderate in its advice, especially to beginners.

alex, it is true I don't read that much on drug cheating these days. Lost interest some years back.

But fact is that 1970s doses still get you a long way. If some mindless bb's want to abuse their bodies for a trophy, with a few making a decent level of money, then that is their choice.

Again, I say what is wrong with a novice starting with a basic cycle.

My own advice would be to take no drugs, but if so, start off moderately.

 

[Big Mick]

ok mick, here is the advice, don't take drugs period.

Probably the best advice in this thread, but I am sure the OP has already made up is mind and will take them regardless.

 

[Achilles]

I don't care. I was merely responding to Oni's supposed mastery of how to take drugs in terms of what he recommends to a novice.

In any case, AUSBB gives the right for people to talk about drugs, it should also give the right for people to argue against them.

Hasn't this site got a responsibility to be moderate in its advice, especially to beginners.

alex, it is true I don't read that much on drug cheating these days. Lost interest some years back.

But fact is that 1970s doses still get you a long way. If some mindless bb's want to abuse their bodies for a trophy, with a few making a decent level of money, then that is their choice.

Again, I say what is wrong with a novice starting with a basic cycle.

My own advice would be to take no drugs, but if so, start off moderately.

Hi Spartacus,

I value hearing both sides of an argument, and for this first cycle I'll be sticking with just the Test E. I don't compete in any sports, so I don't see this as cheating - it's purely to see what can be done. I've been training for a few years and I've gained 28kg naturally, which seems to be my natural limit (I'm an ectomorph, and I just cannot seem to pack any more muscle onto my frame).

I agree that there is a lot of steroid abuse, which is why I'm taking small steps and doing everything I can to mitigate the associated risks. At the first signs of health repercussions (I'll be getting bloods done frequently), I'll be reassessing. Health always comes first in my mind.

What, in particular, do you think I should be concerned with?

Cheers

 

[Achilles]

Yep, estrogen is easy to control but cortisol requires more harsh drugs.
The anti cortisol drugs (that acutally work) work by stopping the conversion of cholesterol to hormones. So that's ALL hormones. Estrogens, cortisols, testosterone etc. This means that the only hormones you have are the ones you shove in your body so you will need to start taking cortisol on this drug and estrogen is good for gains... just not too much. So it's not really recommended unless you're a top level athlete. You may as well just swap drugs in and out, it's not as if it costs any more and limits the number of drugs that you're taking

Ah ok, I didn't realise that cortisol suppression drugs affected all hormones. I definitely don't want to go the route of adding estrogen, cortisol etc.

For my first cycle, I want to take things slow, so I'll stick with the Test E. I like the idea of switching compounds a couple of cycles down the road though if it's an effective way of overcoming a stall induced by cortisol. Why would this switch work, though? What is it that causes this release of cortisol, and why is it that switching circumvents this? Excess estrogen, I understand, is as a result of the HPTA and aromatase enzymes doing their thing.

 

[spartacus]

for what it is worth, will give some advice, albeit your post appears to have most concerns covered with much of the detail about supplements beyond me.

But, as you rely on test e, then your main concern would be gynecomastia. while you also have that covered, some people I have known have got it on a lower dose than you, others nothing on double the dose.

So listen to your own body, and record your progress and side effects, including strength gains. This will build your own knowledge base to advise others later on.

Start with moderate doses so you can learn the ideal risk-benefit ratio from each dose. I would start even lower than you, as low as 200mg of test e a week just to see how your body responds. Again, i know of a person who got good strength gains on 240mg of andriol (oral test) per day (2 tablets every 8 hours). But if you never try the low dose, you will never know.

Last time I looked at a MIMs, 160mg of andriol a day was about the equivalent dose to 100mg of test e per week for HRT, although many men may need higher doses to get desired effect typical of average normal male.

If anything, I would go 100mg deca and 100mg test e rather than 200mg test e, but probably does not matter with dose you are taking. Nandrolone is, in theory, more anabolic and less androgenic than test, but small amount of test would offset your own test shutting down.

Having said that, recent research suggests dangers of nandrolone. Good site to keep up with latest research.
http://www.ergo-log.com/nandrotest.html


test e article 600mg per week

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199607043350101#t=articleTop

test e article 3.5mg per kg per week

http://www.scsepf.org/doc/291208/Paper4.pdf

For advice on bigger doses, listen to people who have taken such doses, so you can learn the pros and cons. I am not sure there are many with the experience on this site, but following might be useful.

http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_on...performance_bodybuilding_gear&s=forumIndexCat

In the end, though, I hope you say no to drugs.

 

[0ni]

Alex, I could not care less about people who contact you about shit I write. They can speak for themselves; why would they go through you (a puny guru).

Like I said, who the fuck are you to give advice on drugs? My opinion is you don't know what you are talking about, and a novice should not listen to you, never mind PEDs.

Fact is that smaller doses achieve most of the gains, and any sensible person should adhere to that principle.

I don't care. I was merely responding to Oni's supposed mastery of how to take drugs in terms of what he recommends to a novice.

In any case, AUSBB gives the right for people to talk about drugs, it should also give the right for people to argue against them.

Hasn't this site got a responsibility to be moderate in its advice, especially to beginners.

alex, it is true I don't read that much on drug cheating these days. Lost interest some years back.

But fact is that 1970s doses still get you a long way. If some mindless bb's want to abuse their bodies for a trophy, with a few making a decent level of money, then that is their choice.

Again, I say what is wrong with a novice starting with a basic cycle.

My own advice would be to take no drugs, but if so, start off moderately.

I have given my opinion
I have given the reasons behind them
I have told you where you can find this information from industry leaders and even offered to GIVE you these books out of my own pocket
But you still disagree offering nothing to counter. Read up or shut up

Ah ok, I didn't realise that cortisol suppression drugs affected all hormones. I definitely don't want to go the route of adding estrogen, cortisol etc.

For my first cycle, I want to take things slow, so I'll stick with the Test E. I like the idea of switching compounds a couple of cycles down the road though if it's an effective way of overcoming a stall induced by cortisol. Why would this switch work, though? What is it that causes this release of cortisol, and why is it that switching circumvents this? Excess estrogen, I understand, is as a result of the HPTA and aromatase enzymes doing their thing.

Honestly, I don't know the exact reasons WHY switching works. It's most likely an immune issue. Your body notices high levels of a steroid and a negative feedback loop occurs. Switching compounds seems to be enough of a change that as "tolerance" (for want of a better word) increases it doesn't increase for other compounds. This is why when you look at a few pro cycles they will often switch compounds in and out after 4 weeks or lower dosages while increasing others.

If you want to go easy on the dosages you can do something else like kick down the test to 250mg a week and load some dbol for a few weeks then ramp the test back up as you drop the dbol. Unfortunately the studies spartacus linked are fairly useless in this discussion. But-

and spartacus needs to pay attention here
3.5mg/kg with an average of just under 80kg body mass gave a dose of 280mg/week. This gave an average gain of around 5kg over 6 weeks (the graph is really hard to read and I can't see a table)

600mg/week with an average of 76kg (more than double the dose) got an average gain of 6kg

Seems pretty clear to me that increasing your hormones from 6 to 10 weeks offered little more benefits, even with an increased dose and similar diet and training

 

[spartacus]

the studies (scientific) are useless. Oh ok, you know it all Oni.

I will let Achilles make his own mind up.

Achilles, i merely put links up in case you were interested, and to suggest best way to knowledge is to read latest studies, along with asking those with experience.

As for receptor saturation and why gain is difficult after a period of time, there maybe studies out there.

But again, common sense is to take break from PED use, then resume. You will not lose much in 2-4 weeks. It worked well for many a bodybuilder I knew.

 

[0ni]

>Links studies to attempt to prove me wrong
>little difference between 6 weeks of testosterone and 10 weeks of double the dose

It's almost as if you didn't even read the full paper