Strength or Body Building ?

[Muu]

Hi guys, I'm new to ausbb.com and from reading the many posts, I tend to get the feeling that ausbb.com is more about strength work and power lifting than Bodybuilding?

Now I'm not asking to be flamed about this, it's more of a general enquiry.

Personally my goal for training is bodybuilding, while I train heavy, I don't often go to Single Max reps and I probably couldn't tell you my max lifts (maybe around my bestish) as I don't seem to get the intensity I am after when I just go for numbers and while I do incorporate full body workouts, they are the differentiator in my training patterns rather than the dominator. Don't get me wrong I absolutely and most definitely incorporate many compound exercises for body parts/areas I train, all the biggies Squat/DL/Bench/Military etc …

In saying that I do agree with the age old slogan, “You don’t see little guys lifting heavy weight”.
I ask this because I'm thinking of doing a training log here, but if the culture is more about Strength training, I might reconsider.
Thanks for your time, I very much appreciate it.

 

[MikeW]

Hey Muu,

I think you're right mate. Most of the lifters here seem to be numbers focussed and into the powerlifting scene. My actual focus is bodybuilding but Markos and a few others pointed out the need to build a strong base first so I'm doing 1rm targetting programmes with Markos' PPP for now. And I can attest to some decent size gains from it too.

I've gone from 75kg to 80kg and when I hit 90kg I might do a cut and see what I've got underneath. I'm going to eat big and see if I can't build to 90kg in 2011.

But start a log mate, you won't get flamed. There's a lot of respect here for all lifters.

Cheers,
Mike

 

[gareer]

It's all about encouragement here, no matter what I do. Many come here to bodybuild but get persuaded about the benefits of heavy lifting. No matter what your training for your always welcome here.

I train for powerlifting and bodybuilding, they're not mutually exclusive. Definitely join and start a log, you'll always find good information here and people willing to help. Good luck.

 

[Oli]

what is your actual question?

Do high level bodybuilders use more volume and isolation work to bring up lagging areas? yes...

Are you a high level bodybuilder? no...

 

[Dancelot]

There are some misconceptions you have about strength training. The powerlifters here don't do 1RMs all the time. They train with high intensity and higher reps for most of their cycles, and often save the 1RMs for actual competitions or the very end of cycle if they aren't competing. Whoever do strength training with insufficient intensity compared to a novice bodybuilder like you is likely not training hard enough. On that note, I have not yet seen any wannabe bodybuilder (cos they've never actually competed) at my gym dare try 20 rep breathing squats, which ironically was a classic bodybuilding exercise. Now that's intensity, baby!

Anyway, you shouldn't need the approval of the majority to post your bodybuilding log. If you train hard and are achieving your goals, I don't think anyone would think less of your training, even if they train for something else. Give people here some credit.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

Depends where you're at, mate. Get up to,

• overhead press, 75-100% of bodyweight
• bench and row, 100-150%
• squat, 125-175%
• deadlift, 150-200%

all for 5+ reps, and you are going to have a very different physique compared to what you had before. Until you get to that sort of level, it doesn't really matter if you're more interested in lifting heavy stuff or just looking buff, the training is the same.

Beyond that, okay you need different training according to your goals. But not many of us are beyond that level, it's just the ones who are, they're pretty noticeable on a forum.

I work with heaps of people who are never going to be at anything like that level. Nonetheless, proper weight training improves how they look, feel and perform. Proper weight training means basic compound movements; not necessarily "barbell squat, bench, deadlift."

 

[Oli]

Id go way further than those figures kyle.

 

[Oli]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwKx20mBR0w]YouTube - Brad Castleberry posing at the 2006 Musclemania World Champs[/ame]

Brad Castleberry, natural bodybuilder. Difference between him and you? he benched 170kg in competition...

 

[gareer]

Oli deadlifting twice your bw for more than 5 reps is a pretty significant start to any bodybuilding program if he's eating.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

I put them at a place where a formerly sedentary person under 50 who dedicates themselves to it but isn't fanatical can achieve them in 6-24 months. More dedicated people will go further; most people go nowhere near them.

The guy brings up an important point: looking around here, we think that anything less than a 140kg squat for a male is just being a pussy. But remember that most people in commercial and community gyms are not engaged in progressive resistance training. Some 59kg runty guy gets to 65kg with a squat of 70kg and a deadlift of 95kg in two months and someone says he must be on steroids. Another 84kg guy squatting 120kg, so far as I know only one person in the gym squats more than him (130kg).

That's where this guy is obviously coming from. He's seeing the clash between the unimpressive ordinariness of mainstream gyms and the numbers tossed around here.

You have to set goals which not only are achieveable, but seem achieveable. For a 75kg newbie, squatting 95kg to 130kg seems impressive and daunting but not insane. Start talking about 200kg and you've lost him, he thinks you're crazy. The process of getting to a 100kg squat is going to greatly change his physique. Whereas if he thinks you're crazy he may not squat at all.

Since ausbb.com has become the PTCFrankston.com message board, we've forgotten where most people are. I agree with the guy who said it'd be good for Markos to post up vids of ordinary workouts done by newbies at PTC. I have referred three talented novices to PTC, giving them links. None went, all three were intimidated. Nobody wants to be the person squatting 60kg in a room full of people squatting 200kg. Yes, you and I know the person would be made welcome and encouraged and helped. But to the person squatting 60kg who comes across endless vids of big lifts, it sure doesn't look that way.

We have to thank Muu, he's brought up an important issue.

I should start a thread talking about some of my clients to give some perspective.

 

[JDizzle]

interesting points Kyle

Ive always said in my opinion one of the keys to getting strong is to train and talk with strong people

Another example is EliteFTS; didnt a guy there say if you cant bench 500 pounds they ask if your sick or injured?

 

[Oli]

I'm all for slow progression but '140 and stop' is total bullshit.

The purpose of muscle growth is to accommodate physical demand. If you're not pushing your squat, bench, press and deadlift as high as your genetic limits will go you're not allowing for that, its that simple.

Yes you will have some imbalances (side laterals, biceps and calves come to mind) but start upping to volume on those later in your training life and its fixed.

Most pro bodybuilders are fucking strong. Believe it or not I'm actually interested in bodybuilding. I'll open up a copy of flex magazine right now and copy out a program:

Phil Williams Back Routine
4x10 Pull ups
4x10 Cable rows
4x10 Barbell rows
4x10 Deadlifts

Notice how all of those exercises are compounds and theres no instructions 'lift girl weights'?

And notice even more how most smart bodybuilding routines are compound exercises 3-4 days a week which look amazingly close to PPP or 5/3/1? then notice that the difference between how the two lift is diet? ITS A CONSPIRACY.

 

[Oli]

btw - anyone who gets 'intimidated' by a 200kg squat is a fag. 140kg is 6 months of training...

 

[Kyle Aaron]

Ive always said in my opinion one of the keys to getting strong is to train and talk with strong people

Absolutely. Even with my unimpressive lifts I was one of the strongest guys in my gym. This didn't help my motivation. This is one reason people get trainers and coaches, my guy with the 120kg squat said to me the other night he'd still be half-squatting 80kg if I hadn't hassled him.

Another example is EliteFTS; didnt a guy there say if you cant bench 500 pounds they ask if your sick or injured?

Wouldn't surprise me. I don't look there much. Looking at EliteFTS when you're a beginner is like watching an interview with Donald Trump when you're trying to get a job at Macca's.

I'm all for slow progression but '140 and stop' is total bullshit.

Who said anything about stopping? I just suggested the numbers as a fraction of bodyweight as a first goal, with it taking 6-24 months with decent effort, well along the way you might develop other goals.

Didn't mention stopping. These conversations always go better if you respond to what people have actually said, rather than some other stuff you made up.

btw - anyone who gets 'intimidated' by a 200kg squat is a fag. 140kg is 6 months of training...

You've never coached anyone from their first day in the gym to a 140kg squat, have you?

It's fun to be able to call people "fags", that way you drive them out of the gym, they remain weak, and you get to keep feeling elite and special. It's less fun and a lot more work to respect people, and work with them over months or years to make them stronger.

 

[GoPies]

Kyle that is a great response, very balanced and fair. Some people respond well to challenges and take them on head on while others have to have their hands held (in the context of noobies at gyms).

 

[Oli]

Didn't mention stopping. These conversations always go better if you respond to what people have actually said, rather than some other stuff you made up.

Yes you did. You drew a line in the sand for when to change to a 'bodybuilding' routine. I'm heavier than most members and 140kg would put me in your 'time for bodybuilding' figures. I squat less than your average crossfiter.

You've never coached anyone from their first day in the gym to a 140kg squat, have you?

It's fun to be able to call people "fags", that way you drive them out of the gym, they remain weak, and you get to keep feeling elite and special. It's less fun and a lot more work to respect people, and work with them over months or years to make them stronger.

Yes, myself. I actually coached myself to a 150kg beltless squat in 8 months for 3x5 all whilst doing a law degree. I squatted 120kg for 3x5 within a few weeks btw.

For people who are willing to listen and give things a go I have a lot of time. Squatting less than 140kg after 6 months of training tells me that you've never tried.

 

[Dancelot]

I have referred three talented novices to PTC, giving them links. None went, all three were intimidated. Nobody wants to be the person squatting 60kg in a room full of people squatting 200kg. Yes, you and I know the person would be made welcome and encouraged and helped. But to the person squatting 60kg who comes across endless vids of big lifts, it sure doesn't look that way.

Kyle, you are confusing weak lifts with weak attitude.

I want to be the person squatting 60kg in that room.

Frequently, I train late at my powerlifting club and the guys lifting around that time make my lifts look like a 60kg lift in a room full of 200kg+. To give you an example, one night I was squatting 145kg 3x5, a PB. Then a guy 20kg lighter did 155 3x5, a guy in my weight class did 185 3x5 and a bigger guy did 240 3x5. I was the weakest guy in the room by a huge amount.

Now I've seen many newbies join this club in my short few months here and most of them have quitted, citing something similar to what you said. For sure, they are weak, but it's not their lifts that are weak, for newbies shouldn't realistically be lifting huge. It is their attitude that's weak.

What's my attitude being in that room? I'm fucking psyched, like a fat kid in a bakery!!! Those guys show me what's humanly possible, right in front of my own eyes, instead of a YouTube clip of some place half way around the world. They are ordinary people, yet freakishly strong (compared to me) due to good training. Their training gives me the confidence to keep on training.

Now if I were to train outside of that gym, right next door in fact, so that I wouldn't be intimidated, my 145kg 3x5 sets would be by far the best squat. What reason would I have to improve myself? None.

You said your newbie lifters when sent to PTC website were intimidated. When I first saw PTC website and learned that so many ordinary people were deadlifting 200kg, I was inspired. I realised that I could do it too, and the big guy who was struggling to pull 190kg at my gym at the time was just weak and trained poorly. I originally had a lifetime deadlift goal of 180kg but after coming across PTC website, 200kg deadlift became my goal for the first year of lifting, which I've achieved. Even then (I was really weak then, not much better than your novice 60kg squatters) I wanted to train at a gym with guys pulling 200kg+.

If I had a weak attitude of feeling insecure because of my weak newbie lifts, I wouldn't be able to progress at all.

Why would any newbie be ashamed of a 60kg squat anyway? I'd only be ashamed of that if I were lifting for years and still stuck at 60kg.

 

[Oli]

THANK YOU DANCER, x2

That completely aside the whole 'bodybuilding vs powerlifting' discussion flys in the face of basic anatomy. Their programs (not talking ghost written magazine bs) only differ in these respects:
a) Volume in bodybuilding is slightly higher whilst %RM is lower (more sets, more reps, though not significantly)
b) Assistance work is targeted differently (to 'lagging areas' as opposed to 'weak points')

When someones lifts all have 1's infront of them (a) is pretty much irrelevant and (b) needs to be more basic because their entire body is lagging.

Direct examples of this:

http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/training-logs.asp?tid=204&__N=Michael Keck

http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/training-logs.asp?tid=126&__N=Matt Kroczaleski

 

[brendon]

it all comes down to attitude and what you are determined to do.

completely agree someone should get there strength up, if they want a serious crack at bodybulding the heavy compunds to build a base should be top priority, get some thickness and fullness into the muscles, once you have achiueved a desired weight (BW) then you cna focus on sculpting to how you want. but the heavy DL, squat, presses need to be done always.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

Yes, myself. I actually coached myself to a 150kg beltless squat in 8 months for 3x5 all whilst doing a law degree. I squatted 120kg for 3x5 within a few weeks btw.

Congratulations, that is well done.

But it doesn't show you know how to take a nervous newbie and get them lifting heavy and sticking to it. There's a difference between being able to do things yourself and being able to get someone else to do it.

Kyle, you are confusing weak lifts with weak attitude.

Easy to judge and condemn. As with Oli, coaching experience gives you different ideas.

You're seeing things as if there are only two types of people, the motivated ones who get a 120kg squat in a few weeks, and the lazy unmotivated ones who never squat at all. At the very least there's a third type, the person who will do great things if they get some encouragement and instruction.

It's that kind of person who we really want to focus on. The super-motivated ones will be alright whatever we say to them, the lazy useless ones will be lazy and useless no matter what. Those who could do well but are a bit scared or overwhelmed so need some encouragement and instruction, those we can do a lot for. This is why I have fired 5 clients (unreliable and slack in sessions regardless of encouragement), and why several others have achieved more than they thought possible (though no 120kg squats "in a few weeks", sorry).

As we say about lifting routines, results count. If you, Oli and Dan, know exactly how to coach people to a 120kg squat "in a few weeks," I'll be interested to see you do it. You'd be very very successful trainers or coaches if you could do that with even one in twenty of the people you find in a mainstream gym. Good luck with that.

Results count.