"speed training"

[adamklam]

How bout formulating some of your own ideas?

That would mean years and years of lifting and studying and application of that study..

 

[0ni]

How bout formulating some of your own ideas?

I didn’t invent toilet paper, but I’m smart enough to use it.

 

[wingman]

I didn’t invent toilet paper, but I’m smart enough to use it.

When someone asks you what colour the sky is, are they expecting you to look at it and give your honest opinion based on what you've witnessed for the past 3 decades or are they expecting the Red/Green/Blue Hexadecimal code from wikipedia?

 

[0ni]

When someone asks you what colour the sky is, are they expecting you to look at it and give your honest opinion based on what you've witnessed for the past 3 decades or are they expecting the Red/Green/Blue Hexadecimal code from wikipedia?

When someone asks you how to strength train, are they expecting you to look at what people have done for the last 200 years or are they expecting newfangled techniques from the last 20 years when people haven't got any stronger than the previous years?

 

[wingman]

So your own lifting hasnt taught you anything?

 

[0ni]

bams, I'm going to ignore the development of "power" for a second. Are you in agreement that the purpose of chains is to "reprogram" the force curve to one that is constantly accelerating?

 

[bams_101]

When someone asks you what colour the sky is, are they expecting you to look at it and give your honest opinion based on what you've witnessed for the past 3 decades or are they expecting the Red/Green/Blue Hexadecimal code from wikipedia?

What if you've spent so much time on Namek that you think the sky is Green???

Or if you're part of the Truman show and the sky is fake???

IT'S ALL A LIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!

 

[bams_101]

How do I quote someone without copy and pasting?
Why the fuck would I give the examples of people that used them when I am trying to show examples strong people that do not use them???? We all know that there of plenty of people that worship/live/die by them

Pretty sure I was asking when you should do reps and when you should do DE as well. I did not say you had to do one or the other. Although I can't think of a single situation in that someone would have a "power deficiency" AND lack repping strength but as discussed there are other benefits from DE training you're not just training power.

I will maintain though that I do not think power is that much of an important quality in this sport, it's most certainly maximum force output. I think this changes with single ply and multi ply as the lifts are much more dynamic. I think the idea that you can "speed train" your way through sticking points is hilarious. I looked through a shitload of logs on t-nation of strong people who did DE work raw and they always missed at the same spot every time. So you either get increase max force output or you do not. If power training will not increase your max force output, there is little reason to do it, the key to this is finding when you're "deficient" in power and I'm still trying to figure that one out

Yeah I get what you were doing, just that the article was about how the Team Jugg members USE them. Not all of them did use them, which is fine, but most of them did at one point or another in their training. Then based their opinion on their experiences with them.

Anybody that worships/lives/dies by any one particular training tool is narrow minded and will eventually fall on his own sword. I don't think anybody in the Elite powerlifting world is like this.

Heres the article if anybody wants to read it for themselves:
Training with Bands and Chains - Juggernaut Training Systems - Juggernaut Training Systems

You do can do reps and speed work at the same time. You say you've read Science and Practice of Strength Training, maybe you should reread Chaper 4, p80-86.

P=F*V is everything in Powerlifting. Yes the name is misleading, especially when bar velocities are greater in Weightlifting, but just because PL tends to be on the Strength end of the Strength-Speed Continuum doesn't mean Power is not important. If you happen to increase Max Force and Speed is maintained then by definition you are more powerful.

 

[bams_101]

bams, I'm going to ignore the development of "power" for a second. Are you in agreement that the purpose of chains is to "reprogram" the force curve to one that is constantly accelerating?

I wouldn't say constant acceleration, I'd say teaches to accelerate and maintain. Even with chains there is still a point in any movement where we will slow down.

Also "reprogram" is a bit too permanent sounding, the force-velocity curves of a chained bench to a normal bench will always be different. But "flattening" as Mike T puts it is simply a decrease in the area under the curve between the Weight and Force plots. That's what accomodating resistance tries to teach.

Have you ever done an exercise with a band, then taken the band off with the same weight and the weight has literally flown up??

 

[bams_101]

LOL I looked at RTS and read a few more articles today, and I saw Mark Bell has an article there and clicked it...

Super Training: How We Roll


LOOK AT THE FIRST LINE LMAO!

 

[wingman]

LOL I looked at RTS and read a few more articles today, and I saw Mark Bell has an article there and clicked it...

Super Training: How We Roll


LOOK AT THE FIRST LINE LMAO!

hahaha

 

[0ni]

LOL I looked at RTS and read a few more articles today, and I saw Mark Bell has an article there and clicked it...

Super Training: How We Roll

I was hoping someone would find that when I posted it, I had a good chuckle to myself

LOOK AT THE FIRST LINE LMAO!

Yeah I get what you were doing, just that the article was about how the Team Jugg members USE them. Not all of them did use them, which is fine, but most of them did at one point or another in their training. Then based their opinion on their experiences with them.

Anybody that worships/lives/dies by any one particular training tool is narrow minded and will eventually fall on his own sword. I don't think anybody in the Elite powerlifting world is like this.

Heres the article if anybody wants to read it for themselves:
Training with Bands and Chains - Juggernaut Training Systems - Juggernaut Training Systems

You do can do reps and speed work at the same time. You say you've read Science and Practice of Strength Training, maybe you should reread Chaper 4, p80-86.

P=F*V is everything in Powerlifting. Yes the name is misleading, especially when bar velocities are greater in Weightlifting, but just because PL tends to be on the Strength end of the Strength-Speed Continuum doesn't mean Power is not important. If you happen to increase Max Force and Speed is maintained then by definition you are more powerful.

I'm not saying that you have to do either or. I'm just questioning if there is any point. Increasing power output without flattening your force curve will make your strong points strong and your weak points weaker. I'm pretty much convinced now that for power training to have significant effect you need to have a flat force curve and be good at grinding. Which brings me to the next point:

I wouldn't say constant acceleration, I'd say teaches to accelerate and maintain. Even with chains there is still a point in any movement where we will slow down.

Also "reprogram" is a bit too permanent sounding, the force-velocity curves of a chained bench to a normal bench will always be different. But "flattening" as Mike T puts it is simply a decrease in the area under the curve between the Weight and Force plots. That's what accomodating resistance tries to teach.

Have you ever done an exercise with a band, then taken the band off with the same weight and the weight has literally flown up??

Yes, I am aware of this training effect and it is quite brilliant. Given the points made above though I think the best use of chains would be to use them with reps rather than "speed work". I think the biggest question still to figure out is "when do you need to train power as a quality" and whether or not is an important quality to train as a beginner

 

[0ni]

"The method of dynamic effort is used not for increasing maximal strength but only to improve the rate of force development and explosive strength"

Zatsiorsky

 

[dez]

I guess the benefits of dynamic effort training depend on the individual, and even on the lift. I deadlift twice a week (light weight performed as explosively as possible, and heavy weights on another day), and have benefitted from the dynamic effort training.

Deadlifting around 100kg for singles every 30 seconds as fast as I can has helped me become more explosive off the floor with heavier weights. If I can get the bar past the knees I'll lock it out. My friend does speed deadlifts with 140kg so it depends on the individual too. I stopped the dynamic deadlift sessions just to see what would happen and after 2 weeks I definitely felt a decrease in explosiveness (obviously I threw it back into my routine once I observed this).

I do believe lifters need to reach a certain level before experimenting with this type of training. It shouldn't be difficult to achieve a 200kg deadlift just by sticking to simple sets of 5, and typical back work e.g heavy barbell rows and weighted chin ups.

I have not experimented with dynamic effort for the squat, tbh I don't plan to, nor the bench.

So where I stand on this: experiment and see if it works for you, but I also do believe there is such a thing as it being too early to experiment.

 

[bams_101]

I'm not saying that you have to do either or. I'm just questioning if there is any point. Increasing power output without flattening your force curve will make your strong points strong and your weak points weaker. I'm pretty much convinced now that for power training to have significant effect you need to have a flat force curve and be good at grinding. Which brings me to the next point:

Yes, I am aware of this training effect and it is quite brilliant. Given the points made above though I think the best use of chains would be to use them with reps rather than "speed work". I think the biggest question still to figure out is "when do you need to train power as a quality" and whether or not is an important quality to train as a beginner

Have you any of your own reasoning of how you came about this conclusion? Do you have any particular individual examples? Or just taking the premise from Mike T and regurgitating it in your own words?

"Like learning to grind, learning to be more explosive is a big topic all by itself. If you are very good at grinding out a maximum weight, then it may be time to introduce some explosiveness into your training. This will help your overall force production and can help spark new gains in your maximal strength" Mike T, taken from the below article...

All about Intensity

As a beginner, power is definitely not a quality I would specifically advise to train. But for Intermediate and Advanced athletes, you answered you own question. Train power/RFD/explosiveness when you need it. Doing dynamic work for the sake of doing dynamic work is stupid. There has to be purpose.

You said you were aware of the training effect from bands, but have you used them before? Have you used chains? If you answer nothing else, answer this.

"The method of dynamic effort is used not for increasing maximal strength but only to improve the rate of force development and explosive strength"

Zatsiorsky

I know what DE work is for, what's your point here? Oh and even your mate Mike T contradicts this a little in the above quote.

 

[bams_101]

I guess the benefits of dynamic effort training depend on the individual, and even on the lift. I deadlift twice a week (light weight performed as explosively as possible, and heavy weights on another day), and have benefitted from the dynamic effort training.

Deadlifting around 100kg for singles every 30 seconds as fast as I can has helped me become more explosive off the floor with heavier weights. If I can get the bar past the knees I'll lock it out. My friend does speed deadlifts with 140kg so it depends on the individual too. I stopped the dynamic deadlift sessions just to see what would happen and after 2 weeks I definitely felt a decrease in explosiveness (obviously I threw it back into my routine once I observed this).

I have more respect for you Dez, and I believe this is the first post I've seen of yours, than I do for Oni. You've actually formed an opinion based on your own experience. I applaud you sir.

 

[0ni]

"If you are very good at grinding out a maximum weight, then it may be time to introduce some explosiveness into your training."

That settles that then

 

[dez]

Its easy to get caught up over what works on the internet just because so and so said it works, but at the end of the day you really have to try it for yourself and find out. What works for one person may not necessarily work for another.

 

[0ni]

Mike Tuchscherer "I don't think you should fixate on speed either. Speed work too has very limited applicability in my experience."

Fresh from the facebooks

 

[dez]

Not sure who that is directed to, but I only do speed work for deadlifts once a week (10 singles in 5 minutes), I would hardly call that fixating.

All you have done is quote someone without relating it to your own experiences.