There is and the isn't a press in the jerk.
You are pressing yourself under the bar but you don't really press the bar.
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"speed training"
- Thread starter 0ni
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There is and the isn't a press in the jerk.
You are pressing yourself under the bar but you don't really press the bar.
When you drop under the bar in a jerk what is quicker just let yourself drop down under gravity or actively push yourself under.
You can't press the bar at lockout but you can push yourself down under the bar.
bams_101
New member
T NATION | CAT, Plyo, and Board Presses: Keys to an Explosive Bench
I saw somebody mentioned Hatfield as the early advocates of CAT (Compensatory Acceleration Training), and he did not have access to bands and chains as far as I know. But thanks to the GTO (golgi tendon organ) without the use of bands and chains the body will start to decelerate as much as 50% into the ROM as a defensive mechanism. So this limits straight weight when learning to accelerate through the movement. Notice, I didn't say straight weight is the devil, just that the two are different animals and each can be used together at the appropriate times.
With DE work, you have anywhere from 6-12 sets with 30-45 sec breaks between sets. If you do this with or without a box, with or without Acc. Res. it will be difficult even with the lower intensities that are prescribed. The body has to recruit the higher threshold MU's due to the inadequate periods of rest between sets, so that if done properly the latter sets should be the same speed if not faster.
Oni, using the chains in a staggered load is one way to get a lot of added mass at a specific ROM. I fail where any typical raw lifter fails in the squat just out of the hole. So I set up 1 pair of chains as normal, then the subsequent pairs can be "quadded" (with 4 links in the carabiner) so the length of the chain is a quarter of it's full length. Then attach this shortened chain not to the feeder/support chain, but to the larger chain. Does the way I wrote that make sense? lol.
It's a little harder with the bench because of the shorter stroke, but the deadlift is similar to the squat and the sticking point is around the knee so you can load it a little better. For me around 60% of the chain is off the floor just below the knee so the "overload" is not that drastic at the top where I'm stronger.
I saw somebody mentioned Hatfield as the early advocates of CAT (Compensatory Acceleration Training), and he did not have access to bands and chains as far as I know. But thanks to the GTO (golgi tendon organ) without the use of bands and chains the body will start to decelerate as much as 50% into the ROM as a defensive mechanism. So this limits straight weight when learning to accelerate through the movement. Notice, I didn't say straight weight is the devil, just that the two are different animals and each can be used together at the appropriate times.
With DE work, you have anywhere from 6-12 sets with 30-45 sec breaks between sets. If you do this with or without a box, with or without Acc. Res. it will be difficult even with the lower intensities that are prescribed. The body has to recruit the higher threshold MU's due to the inadequate periods of rest between sets, so that if done properly the latter sets should be the same speed if not faster.
Oni, using the chains in a staggered load is one way to get a lot of added mass at a specific ROM. I fail where any typical raw lifter fails in the squat just out of the hole. So I set up 1 pair of chains as normal, then the subsequent pairs can be "quadded" (with 4 links in the carabiner) so the length of the chain is a quarter of it's full length. Then attach this shortened chain not to the feeder/support chain, but to the larger chain. Does the way I wrote that make sense? lol.
It's a little harder with the bench because of the shorter stroke, but the deadlift is similar to the squat and the sticking point is around the knee so you can load it a little better. For me around 60% of the chain is off the floor just below the knee so the "overload" is not that drastic at the top where I'm stronger.
0ni
Registered Rustler
The body will recruit the higher threshold MU's if you do reps as well though. There is nothing special about DE in this regard. I think chains are certainly useful but the question really is "when?". I dug out a few quotes:
"I do like bands and chains when they are applied to specific problems (not necessarily a blanket prescription). Speed work is good in theory, but for many don’t need it at all and of those that do, they probably need it to be heavier than recommended." - Mike Tuchscherer. Unfortunately he didn't go into more detail although he has said that people need to flatten their force curve with reps first and foremost.
"I generally do very little lifting with bands at this point. I did much more when I tried to mimic the various westside training ideas I had read. But I’m not really sure I benefited from it much.
As a raw lifter I find that focusing mainly on the bottom of the lift by training with straight bar weight and lift variations that use extended ranges of motion and/or pauses are most helpful. Bands tend to be effective at overloading the top of a lift.
For bench I will say that I don’t use bands but will sometimes use a slingshot. For deads I occasionally use them for sumo, but they are very stressful and I’m not convinced they are very effective. For conventional pulls I like them, however, and this is because they teach you how to pull the weight past your knees using your glutes and hips and hamstrings. Pulling off blocks can be awkward conventional as you can start in an unrealistic position. For sumo I find blocks very helpful because the position in the back is fairly similar to a full range pull. For squats I just squat straight weight. For added strengthening, I front squat or squat high bar with a narrowed stance." - Dan Greene
"I believe bands and chains certainly have their place in training. But they are not a major factor in my program. If I have enough time for a 16 week cycle before a meet I will use bands for one 4 week cycle (3 weeks heavy/1 week light). I don’t use chains because I haven’t lifted at a gym with chains heavy enough to serve their purpose and since I travel a lot it is easier to pack my bands around. The main reason I don’t use bands is because when training raw – there are other manipulations of the lifts I like to do instead of accommodating resistance. And when training in gear – I’m too focused on adapting to the gear and free weight. With that being said; I have had very good results with bands but people tend to overcomplicate them." - Blaine Sumner
"I typically have always trained with just straight free weight and never really thought of using Chains or
Eric Lilliebridge’s amazing 2204 total, raw at 275, has been built largely without the use of any accommodating resistance.
Bands in my training before because of the great success I had made without them. I decided to try out Chains for one short training cycle on my Squats and Deadlifts just to try it out because I wanted to work the top portion of the lift harder and make my lock out stronger on them both. The most we ever used was 50lbs of chains (25lbs per side) so that when you fully stood up with the bar out of the rack, the chains were all the way off the ground hovering about an inch above it, and when you locked out the deadlift they were about half inch to an inch above the ground as well so that the full amount of weight from the Chains was loaded at the top. I did about a 6 week training cycle with them both (3 heavy squats, 3 heavy pulls, alternated every other week) and by the end of the training session I could tell my lockouts were a lot more powerful than they were before and ever since then my lock out on the pull has felt very strong and same with lockout out the squat. The chains definitely helped build some stability on the squat especially if you’re not used to having hanging weight from the bar. I know that a lot of guys like using heavier amounts of chains (100lbs and up) but I figured i’d have the majority of the weight from free weight and just enough weight in chains so that when I hit the bottom of the squat, maybe only 20-30lbs was taken off of the bar when the chains were hitting the ground and for the deadlifts so that the extra Chain weight loaded up fast as soon as you got it to knee level. I would definitely recommend using Chains in your training if you feel like your lockout on the deadlift has slowed down and same with the top portion of your squat. I will probably end up using Chains again in my training at some point whenever I feel like I need them again!" - Eric Lilliebridge
"Since becoming more advanced I have gotten further and further away from this way of training and have realized straight weight and differing rep ranges work far better for me. I became a better lifter because I took a step backward and trained with a more primitive method. I feel that if people try to milk using straight weight with a power bar more and more, and stay away from these tool their strength will only improve because if it. That being said I do still train from time to time with bench and chains." - Brad Little
So the biggest thing here is that at some point in their training these guys feel like reps and max effort work are not doing the job and then they bring in the bands or chains. I'd really like to know when this moment is. Eric Lilliebridge stated it helps his lockout and he is a VERY explosive lifter despite only relying on straight weight for a long time. RFD is just power. I don't see many power athletes utilise bands and chains at all, olympic lifters are incredibly powerful and train with lots of powercleans and powersnatches. Sprinters do lots of sprinting and powercleans. I don't see how the powerlifts should be trained any differently raw.
"I do like bands and chains when they are applied to specific problems (not necessarily a blanket prescription). Speed work is good in theory, but for many don’t need it at all and of those that do, they probably need it to be heavier than recommended." - Mike Tuchscherer. Unfortunately he didn't go into more detail although he has said that people need to flatten their force curve with reps first and foremost.
"I generally do very little lifting with bands at this point. I did much more when I tried to mimic the various westside training ideas I had read. But I’m not really sure I benefited from it much.
As a raw lifter I find that focusing mainly on the bottom of the lift by training with straight bar weight and lift variations that use extended ranges of motion and/or pauses are most helpful. Bands tend to be effective at overloading the top of a lift.
For bench I will say that I don’t use bands but will sometimes use a slingshot. For deads I occasionally use them for sumo, but they are very stressful and I’m not convinced they are very effective. For conventional pulls I like them, however, and this is because they teach you how to pull the weight past your knees using your glutes and hips and hamstrings. Pulling off blocks can be awkward conventional as you can start in an unrealistic position. For sumo I find blocks very helpful because the position in the back is fairly similar to a full range pull. For squats I just squat straight weight. For added strengthening, I front squat or squat high bar with a narrowed stance." - Dan Greene
"I believe bands and chains certainly have their place in training. But they are not a major factor in my program. If I have enough time for a 16 week cycle before a meet I will use bands for one 4 week cycle (3 weeks heavy/1 week light). I don’t use chains because I haven’t lifted at a gym with chains heavy enough to serve their purpose and since I travel a lot it is easier to pack my bands around. The main reason I don’t use bands is because when training raw – there are other manipulations of the lifts I like to do instead of accommodating resistance. And when training in gear – I’m too focused on adapting to the gear and free weight. With that being said; I have had very good results with bands but people tend to overcomplicate them." - Blaine Sumner
"I typically have always trained with just straight free weight and never really thought of using Chains or
Eric Lilliebridge’s amazing 2204 total, raw at 275, has been built largely without the use of any accommodating resistance.
Bands in my training before because of the great success I had made without them. I decided to try out Chains for one short training cycle on my Squats and Deadlifts just to try it out because I wanted to work the top portion of the lift harder and make my lock out stronger on them both. The most we ever used was 50lbs of chains (25lbs per side) so that when you fully stood up with the bar out of the rack, the chains were all the way off the ground hovering about an inch above it, and when you locked out the deadlift they were about half inch to an inch above the ground as well so that the full amount of weight from the Chains was loaded at the top. I did about a 6 week training cycle with them both (3 heavy squats, 3 heavy pulls, alternated every other week) and by the end of the training session I could tell my lockouts were a lot more powerful than they were before and ever since then my lock out on the pull has felt very strong and same with lockout out the squat. The chains definitely helped build some stability on the squat especially if you’re not used to having hanging weight from the bar. I know that a lot of guys like using heavier amounts of chains (100lbs and up) but I figured i’d have the majority of the weight from free weight and just enough weight in chains so that when I hit the bottom of the squat, maybe only 20-30lbs was taken off of the bar when the chains were hitting the ground and for the deadlifts so that the extra Chain weight loaded up fast as soon as you got it to knee level. I would definitely recommend using Chains in your training if you feel like your lockout on the deadlift has slowed down and same with the top portion of your squat. I will probably end up using Chains again in my training at some point whenever I feel like I need them again!" - Eric Lilliebridge
"Since becoming more advanced I have gotten further and further away from this way of training and have realized straight weight and differing rep ranges work far better for me. I became a better lifter because I took a step backward and trained with a more primitive method. I feel that if people try to milk using straight weight with a power bar more and more, and stay away from these tool their strength will only improve because if it. That being said I do still train from time to time with bench and chains." - Brad Little
So the biggest thing here is that at some point in their training these guys feel like reps and max effort work are not doing the job and then they bring in the bands or chains. I'd really like to know when this moment is. Eric Lilliebridge stated it helps his lockout and he is a VERY explosive lifter despite only relying on straight weight for a long time. RFD is just power. I don't see many power athletes utilise bands and chains at all, olympic lifters are incredibly powerful and train with lots of powercleans and powersnatches. Sprinters do lots of sprinting and powercleans. I don't see how the powerlifts should be trained any differently raw.
wingman
Super M0derator
This
Who forum readers think Oni is.............
Who Oni actually is.......
Fucking LOL, nuff said.
0ni
Registered Rustler
If you're not training as hard as you can and figuring out what works best for you, what's the fucking point of even doing it?
Also your comment "why complicate things" is stupid, especially when I was making a point about not using anything but straight weight and reps. How is using less tools in training making it more complicated? Who knows
Also your comment "why complicate things" is stupid, especially when I was making a point about not using anything but straight weight and reps. How is using less tools in training making it more complicated? Who knows
But when the title said speed training I thought it was gonna be about Mike Mentzer style speed training.
Darkoz
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bams_101
New member
Lol pretty much every quote is from a JTS article, apart from the Mike T one, so you barely dug anything up dude. Just copied and pasted. Also the article is about how Team Juggernaut use them, if and when appropriate like I have said.
It's a shame you didn't mention Greg Panora's view though (as well as a few lines in other quotes), but it did contradict your point a little so I could see how you could perhaps forget to put that in.
Mike T also reinforced that when people need the DE work it needs to be at higher percentage, I'm assuming he is talking about barbell lifts. But again DE work is always with a BB...
Athletes can do box jumps, prowler sprints and med ball work (if appropriate). Strongmen can practice their linear speed events like yoke, farmers and loading.
Obviously reps will recruit more MU's when fatigued, not debating that. Again, you don't have to exclusively train one or the other. That's just myopic. Also, there are no studies comparing the two, so who knows if one has more benefit.
0ni
Registered Rustler
How do I quote someone without copy and pasting?
Why the fuck would I give the examples of people that used them when I am trying to show examples strong people that do not use them???? We all know that there of plenty of people that worship/live/die by them
Pretty sure I was asking when you should do reps and when you should do DE as well. I did not say you had to do one or the other. Although I can't think of a single situation in that someone would have a "power deficiency" AND lack repping strength but as discussed there are other benefits from DE training you're not just training power.
I will maintain though that I do not think power is that much of an important quality in this sport, it's most certainly maximum force output. I think this changes with single ply and multi ply as the lifts are much more dynamic. I think the idea that you can "speed train" your way through sticking points is hilarious. I looked through a shitload of logs on t-nation of strong people who did DE work raw and they always missed at the same spot every time. So you either get increase max force output or you do not. If power training will not increase your max force output, there is little reason to do it, the key to this is finding when you're "deficient" in power and I'm still trying to figure that one out
Why the fuck would I give the examples of people that used them when I am trying to show examples strong people that do not use them???? We all know that there of plenty of people that worship/live/die by them
Pretty sure I was asking when you should do reps and when you should do DE as well. I did not say you had to do one or the other. Although I can't think of a single situation in that someone would have a "power deficiency" AND lack repping strength but as discussed there are other benefits from DE training you're not just training power.
I will maintain though that I do not think power is that much of an important quality in this sport, it's most certainly maximum force output. I think this changes with single ply and multi ply as the lifts are much more dynamic. I think the idea that you can "speed train" your way through sticking points is hilarious. I looked through a shitload of logs on t-nation of strong people who did DE work raw and they always missed at the same spot every time. So you either get increase max force output or you do not. If power training will not increase your max force output, there is little reason to do it, the key to this is finding when you're "deficient" in power and I'm still trying to figure that one out
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