Question

[morgan7]

I've been going to the gym and training for a few years. But starting this year I have been going 3 times a week and taking it more serious. The thing is, I am happy with my abs for the moment but want to put more muscle on my upper body, arms etc. At the time being I have a protein shake before and after workout, but I really watch what I eat. But it isnt happing, can you put more muscle on while not putting on any fat or do you have to eat heaps and put on some fat and when you are the size you want then do heaps of cardio to drop the fat. Any imput would be appreciated.

 

[Josh_GTiR]

The best thing to do is to list your regular diet and also your workout routine.

Are you looking to get bigger? You say only in your upper body, is there any reason for this? You should want to build your body proportionaley and as a whole.

 

[Fadi]

can you put more muscle on while not putting on any fat or do you have to eat heaps and put on some fat and when you are the size you want then do heaps of cardio to drop the fat. Any imput would be appreciated.

Let me just clarify something for you here Morgan7; your body is either in an anabolic (building) state, or catabolic (losing) state. Anabolic and catabolic can not coexist. So now that we know of the construction and demolition phases, what does that actually mean as far as fat and muscles are concerned?

It simply means that you can maintain muscles whilst at the same time losing fat; but you can not build muscles whilst losing fat. Remember, one is building and the other is breaking. Of course it's a lot easier to gain muscle and fat at the same time and vice versa. But our aim is to lose one whilst doing our best to hold on to the other (muscles).


Fadi.

 

[tarngloh]

Let me just clarify something for you here Morgan7; your body is either in an anabolic (building) state, or catabolic (losing) state. Anabolic and catabolic can not coexist. So now that we know of the construction and demolition phases, what does that actually mean as far as fat and muscles are concerned?

It simply means that you can maintain muscles whilst at the same time losing fat; but you can not build muscles whilst losing fat. Remember, one is building and the other is breaking. Of course it's a lot easier to gain muscle and fat at the same time and vice versa. But our aim is to lose one whilst doing our best to hold on to the other (muscles).


Fadi.

Yes. I agree with that as this is to be the cases suggested by most experienced trainers.

Just want to add on to what Fadi has said just now: Your body type will affect your body building programme:


If you are tall and skinny then this would tend to mean you fall into the group known as endomorphs. These are the classic hard-gainers and if you fall into this group and have already started weight training you will know that no matter what you do, it is very difficult to put on weight or muscle. You do have one advantage though and that as well as being difficult to put on muscle you will also find it difficult to put on fat. When you do start to gain muscle mass you will tend to notice it more and will have a greater chance of looking ripped. You may not get the big arms or chest typical of most bodybuilders but you will look muscular and bigger as a result.


The next group are the mesomorphs. Usually shorter, heavier, squat and naturally muscular. A lot of these guys will often say they only need to look at a set of weights and put on muscle. For mesomorphs a less intense workout regime will often result in good lean muscle mass gains. However, the danger is also putting on fat, and therefore it is important to have a high proportion of protein in the daily calorie intake than the endomorphs.


Endomorphs, should, ideally take in at least 2 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight daily along with increasing general calorie intake to stimulate a body building or anabolic state.

Great gains can be achieved by both body types but those with an ectomorphic body type will need to work harder in the gym to stimulate muscle growth and increase their calorie intake. Those with a mesomorphic body type need to be careful about gaining fat and may find they cycle between bulking up by building muscle and fat and then cutting down calories to lose the fat.



L

 

[jboy]

, can you put more muscle on while not putting on any fat

I would definately agree with Fadi, i dont think anyone can put pure muscle on without fat. i am sure everyone has read articles saying it is possible but as Fadi has stated you are either building the machine or tearing it down plain and simple

 

[Fadi]

Yes. I agree with that as this is to be the cases suggested by most experienced trainers.

Just want to add on to what Fadi has said just now: Your body type will affect your body building programme:


If you are tall and skinny then this would tend to mean you fall into the group known as endomorphs. These are the classic hard-gainers and if you fall into this group and have already started weight training you will know that no matter what you do, it is very difficult to put on weight or muscle. You do have one advantage though and that as well as being difficult to put on muscle you will also find it difficult to put on fat. When you do start to gain muscle mass you will tend to notice it more and will have a greater chance of looking ripped. You may not get the big arms or chest typical of most bodybuilders but you will look muscular and bigger as a result.


The next group are the mesomorphs. Usually shorter, heavier, squat and naturally muscular. A lot of these guys will often say they only need to look at a set of weights and put on muscle. For mesomorphs a less intense workout regime will often result in good lean muscle mass gains. However, the danger is also putting on fat, and therefore it is important to have a high proportion of protein in the daily calorie intake than the endomorphs.


Endomorphs, should, ideally take in at least 2 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight daily along with increasing general calorie intake to stimulate a body building or anabolic state.

Great gains can be achieved by both body types but those with an ectomorphic body type will need to work harder in the gym to stimulate muscle growth and increase their calorie intake. Those with a mesomorphic body type need to be careful about gaining fat and may find they cycle between bulking up by building muscle and fat and then cutting down calories to lose the fat.
L

Hello Tarngloh,

Just two personal questions before I proceed over here: in your profile you've put down "weight lifting" as an interest. Do you mean Olympic weightlifting or just lifting weights? Secondly you put down "druggist" as an occupation. Now I know also that you wrote that you're from the Philippines, so may be (I hope) you meant a pharmacist by the word "druggist"; am I right?

Now back to topic. The info you've put re the different body types Tarngloh is not quite accurate. Here's a link for you and anyone else who's interested to check at their own leisure: http://www.muscleandstrength.com/articles/body-types-ectomorph-mesomorph-endomorph.html


Fadi.

 

[mike367]

Hi Fadi, ta for the link.

I'm one of your hard gainers, (Ectomorph I am) I used to think that was a bit of a cop out for people not working hard enough or had a bad diet. Me included lol.

I bought my first set of dumbells as a young 17 y/old who tipped the scales at under 60 kg! I planned to get massive
After months of hard work, with little to show for my efforts I gave up.

I've exercised/trained (I did plan to compete), on and off now for 25 years and put on 25 kg!! Oh by the way i'm 5foot 10.

I started exercising again a little over a year ago, alternating 3 day splits for 9 weeks and a 5x5 full body 3 day routine for 9 weeks. I've put on a couple of kilo, but the gains are sooo slow!

I've tried all sorts of routines, high wt low rep, low wt high rep, med wt med rep, bulking, cutting, maintaining.

Fadi my new friend, help me out here will ya please. What should I be doing?
I work out at home with a bench, barbell and dumbells.

Cheers,
Mike.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

It simply means that you can maintain muscles whilst at the same time losing fat; but you can not build muscles whilst losing fat.

There is an exception to this: when you begin with high bodyfat (more than 20% for men, more than 30% for women).

Normally, to get bigger (in fat and muscle both) you must consume more than you spend, have a caloric surplus; to get smaller, consume less than you spend, have a caloric deficit.

However, if you have high bodyfat then you can be at a caloric deficit and still build muscle. Just as with money, your savings (your belly or bum) make up for your lack of income (caloric deficit).

Thus the overfat person can lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, this will get them down to a certain level (around 15% for men, 25% for women), and after that it's just as Fadi says: to gain muscle you must also gain some fat, but you can lose fat while not losing too much muscle.

If you are tall and skinny then this would tend to mean you fall into the group known as endomorphs.

I think you mean "ectomorphs."

Ectos are the tall skinny ones, endos are the solid ones, mesomorphs are the middle.

However, these simply classify a person's current bodyshape, making it as meaningful as the colour of their hair or skin. There is very little research supporting the idea that ecto/meso/endo mean anything physiologically. It's just descriptive.

In my experience, those who look like ectomorphs don't eat much and are generally physically active (walk everywhere, a bit jumpy, etc), those who look like endomorphs eat a lot and are less active (drive places, sit quietly). So rather than looking at their body shape, it's more useful to look at a person's appetite and general activity level.

If you're trying to build up and ever feel hungry, you're not eating enough. For example, I spent July lifting heavy weights and eating according to my appetite; I added not one gramme to my weight. I spent August stuffing myself, sitting there looking sadly at my second lunch of the day, putting the food in my mouth and barely tasting it, forcing it down; I added 1.2kg to my weight. I only did this around the middle of the day, and 4-5 days a week, no doubt if I'd done it every day all day I'd've added more weight.

Likewise, if you're trying to slim down and don't feel hungry for a fair chunk of the day, then you're eating too much.

There does not appear to be anything mysteriously physiological that makes some people thin and others heavy. It's simply how much they eat and how much they do.

Mike, if you want to get bigger, eat more. How much more? If you can open your mouth to ask that question it's because you've not got food in it. Go eat. "But I'm not hungry." Eat anyway. That's how you get bigger.

Lots of fresh fruit and vegies, nuts and beans, some meat, fish and dairy, and for bulking up, lots of starchy food (rice, spuds, pasta, bread).

Endomorphs [ectomorphs?], should, ideally take in at least 2 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight daily along with increasing general calorie intake to stimulate a body building or anabolic state.

2g/kg is enough, you can remove the "at least" part.

The AIS, who we might expect to know something about these things, make no mention of ecto/meso/endo and tell us that provided you have a caloric surplus, 1.2-2g protein per kg bodyweight

"will ensure that protein needs are met. These protein intakes are easily met by consuming a varied diet that meets your energy needs. Consuming protein above this level does not have an anabolic effect. Excess protein will be oxidised as an energy source and may contribute to gains in body fat."​

 

[tarngloh]

Hello Tarngloh,



Now back to topic. The info you've put re the different body types Tarngloh is not quite accurate. Here's a link for you and anyone else who's interested to check at their own leisure: http://www.muscleandstrength.com/articles/body-types-ectomorph-mesomorph-endomorph.html


Fadi.

Hi, Fadi,

In what sense the information is not accurate?

May be, u are talking about this:

If you are tall and skinny then this would tend to mean you fall into the group known as "endomorphs" . Sorry, It should be " Ectomorphs" .

By the way, I am not from The Phillipines. And, I do a lot of drugs and health nutrient as when my patients need them.

L

 

[tarngloh]

Kyle,

Your explanation seems to be very confusing, but, again, thanks for making an effort to make it seem alright.

Growing body mass implies many factors like: metabolism, genetic inheritance, nutrition and training program.The first step which has to be made is to know the type of body and hence metabolism you have in order to make proper modifications in your nutrition and training program. We know that we genetically inherit our parents and family: a certain body weight, a predisposition to certain illnesses, esthetic features and muscular mass. We should perform an analysis of our own metabolism and body type to know what type of exercises or training is adequate for your muscles to grow. And, hence, the idea that ecto/meso/endo mean a lot physiologically.


Well, it is just my opinion!!!


L





L

 

[tarngloh]

Hello Tarngloh,

Just two personal questions before I proceed over here: in your profile you've put down "weight lifting" as an interest. Do you mean Olympic weightlifting or just lifting weights?
Fadi.

Hi Fadi,

Loh again!

Weight training to be more precise

 

[mike367]

Mike, if you want to get bigger, eat more. How much more? If you can open your mouth to ask that question it's because you've not got food in it. Go eat. "But I'm not hungry." Eat anyway. That's how you get bigger.

Lots of fresh fruit and vegies, nuts and beans, some meat, fish and dairy, and for bulking up, lots of starchy food (rice, spuds, pasta, bread).

Eat more, why didn't I think of that, brilliant!!
Hang on a minute I did, I said I tried bulking, now as a cert 3 trainee you should know that means eating more!

 

[Kyle Aaron]

Yes mate, but it's like this.

Lots of people want to lose weight, and say they're eating less, but...

Lots of people want to gain weight, and say they're eating more, but...

You have a certain natural appetite, if you go just beyond or short of it, you're very aware of it, but it might only be 100 calories over or under, not really significant. You have to really do a lot to have a big effect on your physique.

 

[mike367]

So I say I've tried bulking and you say eat more. I say I tried that, but you still assume I'm wrong and don't know how to bulk. Now why do you assume you I don't know how to calculate the amount of cals I need to gain, maintain or loose weight?

Did you ask about my bulking diet? No.
You are making the assumption that I don't know what I'm talking about. Which is a very stupid and arrogrant thing to do.

 

[mike367]

Kyle, sorry about the above post. I am not having the best of weeks. And I am very frustrated with my results. Any helpful advice is appreciated.

Mike.

 

[Zarkov]

Must be the sweetness of the Ashes victory being drowned out by the bitterness of the one dayers!

 

[mike367]

Must be the sweetness of the Ashes victory being drowned out by the bitterness of the one dayers!

Ouch! even if it is pyjama cricket.

 

[morgan7]

Thanks everyone it sounds like I just have to force myself to
eat more so I can build, then when I am where I want to be
then I can just work at maintaining the size and lean down.
What is a quick meal or snack that you can put together which
is great for bulking.

 

[CaT_SPeW]

Thanks everyone it sounds like I just have to force myself to
eat more so I can build, then when I am where I want to be
then I can just work at maintaining the size and lean down.
What is a quick meal or snack that you can put together which
is great for bulking.

milk, boiled eggs, tuna, nuts

 

[Morgan]

Hyjak is correct.

Eat LOTS of milk, boiled eggs, tuna, nuts & lots and lots of meat I also like to consume about 3-4 whole chickens per week and generally about 1kg of Turkey