Power Cleans

[0ni]

Shrugs are good
Fadi, how do I figure out the first pull in the power clean? My hang cleans are good and I have no problem with executing the second pull but getting the bar into position I find pretty hard, probably due to me only knowing how to deadlift. As such my power cleans are just me explosively deadlifting the bar up which works very well as a deadlift builder but I think I would get some benefit out of learning to power clean correctly and rotating it in with my "retard cleans" as I call them (I think they are both good exercises)

 

[Fadi]

Fadi, how do I figure out the first pull in the power clean? )

Insure your arms are as straight as possible. To do that, turn your elbows in, and think of your whole arm and grip as nothing more than a hook to the bar, i.e. do not attempt to muscle up the weight off the floor with your arms/forearms.

My hang cleans are good

That's because you have been forcefully pulled into a straight position by gravity (and the weight of course)

...and I have no problem with executing the second pull but getting the bar into position I find pretty hard

With all due respect to you Oni, let me point out the problem I see with what you've just said. One the one hand you say that you have no problem with executing the second pull ... well let us just pause here for a second shall we. If your second pull is great, and you're still having some issues with getting the bar into position after the third pull, then it's one of two things: either your second pull is not the best, or you're letting yourself down big time with your third and final pull by lacking the hip thrust and full extension. The second and third pull are interconnected, that is to say you can't have a bad second lift and end up with a good third lift.

Notice that I did not say anything about the first lift, the lift off the floor. I have mentioned this previously on this forum, that the initial lift off the floor is not necessarily a weightlifting lift, but more of a dead lift. And I proved that by pointing out some of the best lifters the world of Olympic weightlifting has ever seen, dead lifting the weight off the floor, only to really explode up with it as they thrust their hips forward and up, finishing with a full extension of their traps before attempting to go underneath the bar, or before allowing the bar to "fall down" onto their clavicle.

but I think I would get some benefit out of learning to power clean correctly and rotating it in with my "retard cleans" as I call them

Oni, if your lift is explosive enough, then you should be receiving the weight and NOT the other way around. I mean the rotation of the hands occur at that moment when the weight is momentarily suspended in the air as your body meets it after it (your body that is) explosively accelerate downwards. But for that to happen, the second pull and the third pull have to be 100% on the money or rotation of the wrist would be a near impossibility. Why not drop the weight to no more than 40kg and practise with that over and over before increasing weight!

All the best.

Fadi.

 

[0ni]

Alright thanks, I'll try and get a video up

 

[vonfram88]

Another one for Fadi:

At what point should I release the bar (that is let go of it) between repetitions on a power clean? I think maybe I am inadvertently decelerating the bar on the way to the floor, which cannot be good for the old forearms and biceps. It seems to be a trade off between control and equipment abuse.

 

[oioi]

just drop it from your shoulders

 

[Chisholm]

Fadi, What sort of figure for power clean should I be aiming for to demonstrate reasonable technique/balance?

I just did 82.5kg pretty comfortably, but my technique probably sucks as I just started doing oly stuff casually for fun pretty recently - recent training figures:

79-80kg@180cm
180 x 3 conventional deadlft
120 x 3, 135 x 1 olympic squat
100 x 3 front squat

-All done reasonably comfortably without glaring breakdown in speed or technique. Also, I have a fairly strong vertical (~90cm+), should this indicate a relatively strong power clean potential? PLing is my main goal, but I am aiming to become reasonably proficient at the oly lifts also.

 

[Fadi]

Another one for Fadi:

At what point should I release the bar (that is let go of it) between repetitions on a power clean? I think maybe I am inadvertently decelerating the bar on the way to the floor, which cannot be good for the old forearms and biceps. It seems to be a trade off between control and equipment abuse.

If I understand your question correctly Von, then my answer would be, it depends on the weight lifted.

No sane weightlifter would want to invite injury, especially when it could be avoided. Hence, if the weight is too heavy for you to perform a continuous nonstop set of power cleans, then you have two options to choose from here Sir:

1. You drop the bar after it has rested on your clavicle for a split second, or...

2. ...or you go one step further (as I used to do to conserve energy) and drop the bar as soon as it touches your clavicle (or resting place if you will Sir).

I'm really not 100% sure if I have answered your question fully, if not, then by all means ask again. Thank you.


Fadi.

 

[Fadi]

Fadi, What sort of figure for power clean should I be aiming for to demonstrate reasonable technique/balance?

I don't understand what you mean by demonstrate reasonable technique/balance Sir. Are you referring to the amount of weight lifted that would allow you to learn the power lifting technique, or are you referring to the amount of weight that would test your lifting technique?

For the former, I'd say 40kg would be a good weight to learn the technique with.

I just did 82.5kg pretty comfortably, but my technique probably sucks as I just started doing oly stuff casually for fun pretty recently - recent training figures:

A power clean needs to be powered up. If you have done so with the 82.5kg, then great! If on the other hand you have muscled the weight up, then we go back to my first point, and that is to ask you to please drop the weight back to 40kg, and master the second and third pull (which involve straight arms, chest over the bar, and then wham forward with that hip thrust and full trapezius extension, causing the bar to explode up with acceleration etc. ...


Fadi.

 

[bams_101]

No sane weightlifter would want to invite injury, especially when it could be avoided. Hence, if the weight is too heavy for you to perform a continuous nonstop set of power cleans, then you have two options to choose from here Sir:

Off topic, but I really respect the manners Fadi. Shows a lot of class. Reminds me of Samuel L. Jackson in Coach Carter.

 

[Chisholm]

I don't understand what you mean by demonstrate reasonable technique/balance Sir. Are you referring to the amount of weight lifted that would allow you to learn the power lifting technique, or are you referring to the amount of weight that would test your lifting technique?

For the former, I'd say 40kg would be a good weight to learn the technique with.

A power clean needs to be powered up. If you have done so with the 82.5kg, then great! If on the other hand you have muscled the weight up, then we go back to my first point, and that is to ask you to please drop the weight back to 40kg, and master the second and third pull (which involve straight arms, chest over the bar, and then wham forward with that hip thrust and full trapezius extension, causing the bar to explode up with acceleration etc. ...


Fadi.

Perhaps I didn't express myself correctly. My question is, given my other lifts, roughly what sort of poundage for power clean should I be aiming for/expecting with acquisition of competent technique? I'm definitely not muscling/rowing the weight up, so it seems progress is being made.

By balance, I mean lifts that indicate a balanced/complete physique development. For example, Charles Poliquin reckons one should be able to front squat ~85% of their olympic back squat, if not then there is an inbalance/weakness.

 

[bams_101]

For example, Charles Poliquin reckons one should be able to front squat ~85% of their olympic back squat, if not then there is an inbalance/weakness.

Going off the top of my head I know of a 600lb front squatter who back squats 800lb (75%). Koklaev is 312.5kg FS and 360kg back squat (87%). So I'd say it would be nice to have 85% but not necessarily imbalance/weakness.

You would be around 80% going off your 110x3 and 135x1. So if your above 70% and can front squat more than you can clean I'd say your pretty safe if you're a PL or regular gym goer. Under 60% then you've got some work to do, probably some upper body mobility and trunk strength issues.

 

[Fadi]

Perhaps I didn't express myself correctly. My question is, given my other lifts, roughly what sort of poundage for power clean should I be aiming for/expecting with acquisition of competent technique? I'm definitely not muscling/rowing the weight up, so it seems progress is being made.

Some may think I'm dodging your question, I'm not Sir! However, what I'm asked here (now that I have fully comprehended your query) is to (my way of thinking) compare apples with oranges, something that would only serve to generate more confusion. You see Chisholm, your other lifts, the ones you've mentioned in your post, namely the following, are all strength based rather than power based. Hence, I find it difficult to give you a constructive answer.

180 x 3 conventional deadlft
120 x 3, 135 x 1 olympic squat
100 x 3 front squat

You may perhaps find my reply to the second part of your question helpful in sorting out the first part (the one above).

By balance, I mean lifts that indicate a balanced/complete physique development. For example, Charles Poliquin reckons one should be able to front squat ~85% of their olympic back squat, if not then there is an inbalance/weakness.

Now with all due respect to this mighty coach, I do not subscribe to the notion of predicting some numbers based on other numbers. By that I mean, I don't tell lifters that if they can back squat X amount of weight, then based on that figure, their front squat ought to be X Y or Z ! Leaving everything aside, I find it detrimental simply from a psychological point of view.

Let's look at it another way. I'm sure you've heard of this saying: is the glass half full or is it half empty. More to the case in point: am I a strong front squatter or am I a weak back squatter. You may look at my numbers for that if you like. My front squat is 97.5% that of my back squat. Does that make me odd, strong, or weak?! To be honest with you, I won't allow my brain to lose energy over such formulated formulas.

Put again yet differently. You get the person who tells you that if your 1RM back squat is X, then your 10RM or 20RM should be Y! I'm asking, whatever happened to all the shade of greys between black and white, between restricting one's thoughts and ideas and between freeing them, enjoying the positives in what is termed "odd", whilst paying less attention to what we call the norm. Failing to do that, would find one wasting time battling with one's strengths, whilst focusing on what is labeled as a weakness.

Getting back to Coach Charles Poliquin and his 85%, where does that leave me? A front squat specialist with 195kg, or a back squat hopeless case, with a 200kg, at a bodyweight of about 73kg?! As you can see, we can discuss back and forth the above based on coach Poliquin reckoning, and I'd guarantee we'd never come to a full consensus. Hence, I don't subscribe to such notions, but much prefer to focus on your strengths and accept that for whatever reason (body mechanics perhaps), that you will always be an exceptional (say) dead lifter than a bench presser etc. etc.


Fadi.

 

[0ni]

Poliquin doesnt state that this is an "optimal ratio" that you need to aim for, it is just data compiled from multiple strong people. Doesnt mean the sample size wasnt massive with a huge range. Torso length alone will change a lot

 

[bams_101]

Poliquin doesnt state that this is an "optimal ratio" that you need to aim for, it is just data compiled from multiple strong people. Doesnt mean the sample size wasnt massive with a huge range.

Poliquin Blog - Tip 394: Do Front Squats To Get Stronger, Run Faster, and Jump Higher

Ten Things We?ve Learned About Squats | Poliquin Article

You sure about your statement Oni?

 

[0ni]

man what a retard

 

[wingman]

Poloquin is a couple sandwiches short of a picnic

 

[Darkoz]

He's got great guns

 

[wingman]

So do redneck roo shooters up north

 

[Darkoz]

You jelly?

 

[0ni]

This is one of those times I state my opinion and say that you should probably use Poliquin as a source of information and then to read the articles he links and interpret what you read there for yourself

I hope he has a secretary or monkey that posts that crap up