Demoralised and looking for advice

[Oli]

Starting Strength has you deadlift every second session, and for only one work set of 5 reps. So if you were doing multiple sets of deadlifts every session, you weren't doing the programme.

Nope. Check PP:ST. Once a week, one set.

I suspect there was something else going on there. As well as calories there's nutrition, vitamins and stuff. You'd be getting something like 5,000kcal just from the milk and meat, so I wonder if you had any vegies, fruit, nuts and beans. It's not just energy we need. As well, there's the issue of rest. Many people don't get enough good sleep.

Breakfast: 1L of milk, 8 weetabix and 2 scoops of whey, piece of fruit

Lunch: 400-600g of chicken breast fried in olive oil, 2 wholemeal buns, 2 pieces of fruit, a few glasses of milk if i was at home.

Pre workout: 2-3 glasses of milk, sometimes some more fruit

Post workout: 1L of milk, 2 scoops of whey

Dinner: 500g-1kg of read meat fried in olive oil, 3-4 servings of veggies.

Before bed: 2-3 glasses of milk.

Sleep: 10-12 hours.

I don't know your age, either. As we get older our recovery slows down, we need more of a warmup, etc. And of course there are various health issues to be considered. Most weight training advice is directed at healthy young adult males.

19 with a small bone/joint structure.

Warm ups:

*Light stretch*
empty bar x 10
One disc x 5
Two discs x 3
Three discs x 2
Go!

I'm glad you found a way that worked for you. In the end, all that counts is results - if you found a way that worked for you, then nothing else matters. Just bear in mind that the way things worked for you isn't the only possible way things could work.

Kyle, theres a 16 year old on bb.com who squatted 675lb raw doing a doggcrapp routine. Does that mean it works for everyone? **** no.

For every one person who can do a doggcrapp routine there's a good 20 or so who cant. Why start off with a shitload of high volume then?

 

[Oli]

What I'm seeing here is guys that have never competed and therefore never been tested, complaining about volume and telling me what they cant do.

Dont let my lack of competition fool you markos. I wish I had a video of every meal I ate, and the 6 months I spent doing 5x5 without any progress on the deadlift. It happened, and dropping the volume fixed all.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

Nope. Check PP:ST. Once a week.

Get your story straight, Oliver. Above you said you deadlifted every session, here you're saying it was once a week. Which was it?

You weren't eating enough vegies, and had no nuts or beans. Only half your spark plugs were firing as you put that extra fuel through the engine.

Again, you found a way that worked for you. That's great! But it's not the only way that could have worked for you.

 

[Oli]

Get your story straight, Oliver. Above you said you deadlifted every session, here you're saying it was once a week. Which was it?

You weren't eating enough vegies, and had no nuts or beans. Only half your spark plugs were firing as you put that extra fuel through the engine.

Again, you found a way that worked for you. That's great! But it's not the only way that could have worked for you.

Never said I deadlifted once a session. I deadlifted once a week doing this:

3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench/overhead
3x5 Bent row


3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench/overhead
1x5 deadlift

3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench/overhead
3x5 bent row

No nuts and beans, half the spark plugs firing? so if I ate the nuts and beans I could have squatted widowmakers every session?

 

[Kyle Aaron]

Never said I deadlifted once a session.

You said,

I did Rips program for 6 months. By the time I got to month 6 with a 170kg 5RM beltless I couldnt deadlift every session anymore

Nonetheless, you have clarified it now.

No nuts and beans, half the spark plugs flying? so if I ate the nuts and beans I could have squatted widowmakers every session?

Had you eaten more nuts and beans and more vegies, in place of some of the milk or meat, then you would have been more capable of a higher workload. Whether you could have done 20 rep breathing squats every session I don't pretend to know, again that's individual, and depends also on other stuff in your life. But you would have had a better chance than with the diet you outlined.

There's more to strength nutrition than energy and protein.

A simple observation: every person who has coached or trained others, or has been coached or trained, says a higher volume is possible for most people. Most people who've trained just on their own has their doubts about this.

This reminds me of the discussions I have about women and strength. Most women who get coached find that they get stronger than they ever thought they could, all the women training on their own say, "that's just a few freaks, most women can't do it."

Is it just the really fit and strong people going to trainers and coaches? Or is it simply that having someone around to push you makes you go past what you thought were your limits?

 

[dave]

I think Oli's point is why start a beginner on higher volume which could burn them out and instead start them on a lower volume approach which will not have a chance of burning them out but still get good gains. Then once they move to intermediate/gains stop they can decide if they want to up the volume (once they learn some of the intricacies of self fatigue management).
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[Dancelot]

Oliver, earlier this year, for 4 months (early Jan to early May), I did something similar to the PTC Beginner Program, but not as hard. I couldn't quite go full BP because I was eating a calorie deficit to lose weight and didn't have any experienced coach or lifter watching me.

I squat, push, pull 3 times a week. For 2 months out of 4, it's twice a week 20 rep widowmaker squats, and for the other two months, 3x5 heavy squats twice a week (the other session is front squat). For 2 out of 4 months, I replaced deadlift with heavy goodmornings, power shrugs and power cleans.

My 3 lifts (SQ, BP, DL) went from 110-65-140 to 155-95-185, bodyweight from 86 to 80.

If I didn't have to worry about losing weight and wanted to gain, I could eat heaps more and go full BP.

I think PTC BP can be done by beginners, for sure, but it may be too hard to stick to by those that train by themselves. Most novice lifters are not as disciplined or dedicated and it takes some time for them to build that up.

 

[Sticky]

I think that everybodys trying to get too technical.

Nic, you've been answered on the first page.
Pick a program. Stick to the program. When you stall, choose another method.

Done.
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[Oli]

You said,

Nonetheless, you have clarified it now.

By that I meant that deadlifting every session wasn't going to be a possibility.

Had you eaten more nuts and beans and more vegies, in place of some of the milk or meat, then you would have been more capable of a higher workload. Whether you could have done 20 rep breathing squats every session I don't pretend to know, again that's individual, and depends also on other stuff in your life. But you would have had a better chance than with the diet you outlined.

I dont pretend that more vegetables and beans would have helped, but I doubt it would have made a long term, tangible difference in results.

A simple observation: every person who has coached or trained others, or has been coached or trained, says a higher volume is possible for most people. Most people who've trained just on their own has their doubts about this.

Rippetoe (the guy who Louie Simmons defers to) seems to advocate the exact same amount of volume that I do. So does wendler, IA and McRobert. This is a rather lame argument though, because it involves pointing to examples rather than logic.

This reminds me of the discussions I have about women and strength. Most women who get coached find that they get stronger than they ever thought they could, all the women training on their own say, "that's just a few freaks, most women can't do it."

Implied criticism noted.

Is it just the really fit and strong people going to trainers and coaches? Or is it simply that having someone around to push you makes you go past what you thought were your limits?

Kyle, whilst I might have an absence of broism and brologic training at home i lifted as hard as I could, with all variables exactly the same and you're telling me it didnt happen.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

As I said, I'm quite happy for a person to start with one legs, one pull and one push exercise, lifting 1kg for for one set of one rep - so long as they do more in their second session, and then more in their third, and so on.

If in each session they do more weight, more reps or more sets than they did before, they'll progress. They'll just be starting slowly - but a couple of years later that won't matter. Whatever gets people off the couch watching Oprah and eating Tim Tams is good. Some of those things are better than others, of course. But everything is better than nothing.

Progress is the key issue for Nic, the original poster here. He's switched routines. The key issue for him is not which particular routine he does, but that he should stick to one for long enough to get substantial results. Volume is not the issue, the particular exercises he chooses is not the issue, the reps he does is not the issue, even his diet is not the real issue (though it's important), it's the lack of a consistent effort over time.

Consistent effort over time is the major thing missing from the workouts of the vast majority of people in gyms. They do not stick to the same routine and progress with it. And this is Nic's issue, too - he told us. We should not be distracted from this just because Oliver got stressed out because he had to do 5 reps of deadlifts every second session and didn't like to eat his vegies.

As I said in the beginning,

Consistent effort over time gets results. Pick whichever programme you like and stick to it.

At some point you plateau, can't get the lifts up. At that point look at your nutrition and rest - usually people's stalls are caused by not enough good food or good sleep.

I wouldn't say continue the programme until you get particular lifts, but until you're stalling even with awesome food and lots of sleep. Then it's time to change. But it's unlikely you'll have perfect food and heaps of good sleep, almost nobody does. So stick with the programme.

Consistent effort over time gets results. The programmes are just a tool to help you be consistent.

Nic, do whatever routine you like. Just stick with it, and progress with it.

 

[Oli]

I think Oli's point is why start a beginner on higher volume which could burn them out and instead start them on a lower volume approach which will not have a chance of burning them out but still get good gains. Then once they move to intermediate/gains stop they can decide if they want to up the volume (once they learn some of the intricacies of self fatigue management).
Posted via Mobile Device

thank ****.

Consistent effort over time is the major thing missing from the workouts of the vast majority of people in gyms. They do not stick to the same routine and progress with it. And this is Nic's issue, too - he told us. We should not be distracted from this just because Oliver got stressed out because he had to do 5 reps of deadlifts every second session and didn't like to eat his vegies.

lets be consistent with arnold's routine, x6 a week with two sessions a day. He has better credentials than any of us therefore it must work. if we eat our beans it cant fail!

 

[Nic]

Because the weight is obviously too heavy for you otherwise it wouldnt be a problem.

SOrry you answered that above form someone else..

The bar is still too heavy even with 20kg decrease..

The problem I find is fatigue. By the last few reps I'm just tired and hence I GM out of the hole.

Regarding dropping the weight and still being too heavy, I'm not sure what you are suggesting? If to get stronger you need to lift more every workout, ie. stressing your body, I'm not sure what I would have to gain by dropping the weight down that low? At such a point there is no stress, only fatigue. Atleast this is my experience.

Nic.

 

[Nic]

I did Rips program for 6 months. By the time I got to month 6 with a 170kg 5RM beltless I couldnt deadlift every session anymore, nor could I squat my max x3 a week. Arn't those sort of things obvious?

I milked the crap out of my beginner cycle, i dont think I could have had the volume been higher.

Oliver, I'm curious, what where your lifts like at the beginning of the 6 months? Also, how long ago did you get off SS?

Nic.

 

[moons]

This thread is becoming sentient D:

Nic, as I'm sure others have said, you need to simply pick a routine and stick to it. There are a number of proven routines, high volume/low volume whatever your flavour of choice.

Stick to one of them for 3-4 months and put in the effort. That means consistency, eating right, getting rest. If after this time you have not seen results, the problem lies somewhere with you, not the program.

Thousands upon thousands of lifters around the globe have had success with SS, WS4SB etc. Markos' lifters have a heap of Australian and some world (I think) records (attribute this to the apparently sad state of Aus powerlifting if you like - the fact that his lifters came in and cleaned up with around 2 years of lifting experience speaks volumes).

A beginner can get stronger looking at a barbell with the right intensity. Having a proven routine is an epic bonus, for most. The fact that you have, in seven months, brought your lifts to what many would consider a beginners level leaves me questioning the effort/intensity that you are putting in. This is not meant to be a put down, simply something to take note of and change.

 

[Shrek]

Nic, you have not read the post closely.
Re-read again son.

Drop weight so you can perform with correct form. You can still add weight each workout to increase progression.

 

[Nic]

What I'm seeing here is guys that have never competed and therefore never been tested, complaining about volume and telling me what they cant do.

Not sure whether this is directed at me or Oliver or anyone else in particular, but for the record I haven't once said in this thread that I couldn't do the volume your advocating. Whether or not it would be best for me is another question. The sin I commited was trying to understand the logic of it by asking a question.

Nic.

 

[Nic]

I agree with others that what's useful has already been said. The thread really isn't going anywhere (and hasn't for many pages). None the less still some interesting things said despite the somewhat hostile atmosphere.

We've made some tweaks to things. More or less gone back to SS with some slight alterations (Front squatting on second day, deadlifting once a week). Will be sticking to this for atleast another 2 months. With holidays I should have more time to eat properly, get more rest and really focus on training.

Thanks to those who have tried to give serious advice. Will try and keep you updated!

Nic.

 

[Oli]

Oliver, I'm curious, what where your lifts like at the beginning of the 6 months? Also, how long ago did you get off SS?

Nic.

6 months roughly. almost a year now. I'd spend the rest of 2009 doing 5x5 and getting ****ed by volume, with the coming of the 3000 word essay in 2010 Ive barely touched the bar.

Squat (3x5): 70-160
Bench (3x5): 50-90 (I think)
Deadlift (5RM): 100-170

Bodyweight: 75-87.5

Things I'd do differently:
- Eat a lot less
- Wish I had proper funds - I used to lift on some dodgeyass avanti gear, didnt have much money for supplements either
- Not get interrupted by exams.

 

[Shrek]

g.

Thanks to those who have tried to give serious advice. Will try and keep you updated!

Nic.

The guys didn't try to give advice, they actually did give advice, what you choose to do with it is up to you.

Good Luck Nic.

 

[Nic]

The guys didn't try to give advice, they actually did give advice, what you choose to do with it is up to you.

Good Luck Nic.

I didn't mean it like that Shrek. Don't read too much into it. Thanks none the less.

Also, thanks to Oliver for the background. Gives me a real-life reference point.

Nic.