clean bulking diet?

[pistachio]

Just wondering if anyone knows what the recommendations are for caloric intake, P/F/C split etc for clean bulking?

I'm planning on doing an epic clean bulk next year, calorie controlled all year round.

Just not sure what calories I should be aiming for.... or what P/F/C split.

Currently weighing around 91kgs, consuming 2700 calories, approximately 35/35/30 (P/F/C). Only been doing this for a little under 2 weeks so far, but my weight appears to be coming down.

Would 3000 calories be too much for a clean bulk?

I'm thinking of gradually increasing the calories over the next few weeks in preparation for my clean bulk (I'm probably lean enough now), to try to ascertain what my maintenance calories are. 3000 seems about right for a clean bulk though.

Thoughts?

 

[MaxBrenner]

IMO, A 'clean' bulk would be being in a 10-15% calorie surplus.

My protein intake suggestion would be minimum 2.5g/kg bodyweight. Fats minimum as normal 0.85g/kg bodyweight. The rest is up to you, if you feel better and your training performance is better on carbohydrates as the 'filler' in your macronutrient, just do that to keep it simple.

 

[Morgan]

I'm starting to sound like a broken record but a DEXA scan will tell you exactly what cals you should be consuming.

 

[pistachio]

So if I'm still losing weight on 2700 calories, than 3000 wouldn't be quite enough. Maybe 3200?

The problem is that trial and error doesn't really work so well when bulking.

I mean, best case scenario, I gain say 6kgs LBM next year. Which is 0.5kgs per month. Which is say 130g per week if you include a little bit of fat gain. Which is virtually impossible to measure, as your weight can fluctuate nearly a kilo on a daily basis.

So its not like you can slowly creep the calories up and try to see if it makes a difference, as any difference made by the increase in calories will be overshadowed by the daily (and weekly) variations.

So maybe I'll just start at 3200 or something? I would think that 3200 calories would result in me getting fat.

 

[pistachio]

I'm starting to sound like a broken record but a DEXA scan will tell you exactly what cals you should be consuming.

Really? How on earth do they do that?

I will be getting a DEXA scan before I commence my next bulk, I think there is a place in Perth that does it now. But I forgot where it is. I think you told me actually? I remember it was more expensive here than in Sydney or Melbourne, but I think it'll be worth it to monitor my progress next year.

 

[MaxBrenner]

So if I'm still losing weight on 2700 calories, than 3000 wouldn't be quite enough. Maybe 3200?

The problem is that trial and error doesn't really work so well when bulking.

I mean, best case scenario, I gain say 6kgs LBM next year. Which is 0.5kgs per month. Which is say 130g per week if you include a little bit of fat gain. Which is virtually impossible to measure, as your weight can fluctuate nearly a kilo on a daily basis.

So its not like you can slowly creep the calories up and try to see if it makes a difference, as any difference made by the increase in calories will be overshadowed by the daily (and weekly) variations.

So maybe I'll just start at 3200 or something? I would think that 3200 calories would result in me getting fat.

I'll answer in a bit more depth tomorrow

I'd say once your cut is finished, Increase your calories by 15% and stay at that for 2-3 weeks and see what your progress is. Then either up it again by 10% if you weight remained stable or just keep the calorie intake the same if your weight increase.

You gotta take into consideration water retention, as growing muscle doesn't happen that quickly.

 

[eaglebay]

Really? How on earth do they do that?

I will be getting a DEXA scan before I commence my next bulk, I think there is a place in Perth that does it now. But I forgot where it is. I think you told me actually? I remember it was more expensive here than in Sydney or Melbourne, but I think it'll be worth it to monitor my progress next year.

Joondalup health campus if I remember it correctly

 

[dave]

Listen to Max.

 

[pistachio]

Joondalup health campus if I remember it correctly

I hope you didn't remember it correctly, thats miles away from me lol

Listen to Max.

I intend to, I look forward to his more detailed response tomorrow

 

[wingman]

Joondalup health campus if I remember it correctly

Anyone happen to know if you need a referral or can just make an appointment / turn up?

 

[jzpowahz]

Do what Max said.

Assess results every 2 weeks or so. (pics, measurements, calipers) If you didn't gain as much as you wanted then up the cals a bit more. If you put on more than you wanted, then cut them a bit.

Remember you can do a mini cut for a few weeks if you aren't happy with the amount of fat gain also.

 

[MaxBrenner]

Pistachio, sorry I couldn't answer in full yesterday

As I previously mentioned, going on a 'clean' bulk is (IMO) being in a 10-15% calorie surplus. The food type (with common sense in place and essential's being met) does not make it a clean or dirty bulk.

Once you have finished your cut, just simply go to consuming 15% more calories than your current cut caloric intake. Like I outlined before, consume that calorie intake for 2-3 weeks and see what your progress is and adjust it as necessary (either up 10% if weight was maintained or as is if weight increased).

Now you must remember that you will get some extra water retention weight which can come on quite quickly. That is not to be confused with lean muscle mass.

True LBM for nOObs can be in the region of 200grms a week and for more seasoned trainers and people of higher levels will be pushing 100grms a week. So it is slow and just because you are not putting on kilos a month does not mean you are not re-compositioning your physique A good indication is the progression of your training performance. If it is going forward, chances are so is LBM gains.


So essentially if you are gaining at more than 0.5g a month, chances of the gains being fat related will be much higher. So being in an excessive calorie surplus is not necessary and will only make you next cutting phase so much more hard work (much more restrictive calorie wise and therefor poorer training performance etc).

Increasing your calorie intake does not need to happen regularly. If you are gaining in that 300-400grm per month range stick with the current calorie intake. Once it levels out (both weight gain and training progression) then look at increasing your calories by another 10% and go from there.

I hope that helps you a little mate

 

[TrentZor]

MAX - You had me at hello

 

[MaxBrenner]

MAX - You had me at chocolate

Fixed

Que love song .....

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo_0UXRY_rY[/ame]

 

[pistachio]

Do what Max said.

Assess results every 2 weeks or so. (pics, measurements, calipers) If you didn't gain as much as you wanted then up the cals a bit more. If you put on more than you wanted, then cut them a bit.

Remember you can do a mini cut for a few weeks if you aren't happy with the amount of fat gain also.

Thanks mate. Yeah, now that I'm calorie controlling my diet, a mini cut would be far easier to achieve if need be. Hopefully it won't be an issue, but somehow I let myself gain a LOT of fat this year, so I'm hoping it won't slowly creep on next year also.

Pistachio, sorry I couldn't answer in full yesterday

As I previously mentioned, going on a 'clean' bulk is (IMO) being in a 10-15% calorie surplus. The food type (with common sense in place and essential's being met) does not make it a clean or dirty bulk.

Once you have finished your cut, just simply go to consuming 15% more calories than your current cut caloric intake. Like I outlined before, consume that calorie intake for 2-3 weeks and see what your progress is and adjust it as necessary (either up 10% if weight was maintained or as is if weight increased).

Now you must remember that you will get some extra water retention weight which can come on quite quickly. That is not to be confused with lean muscle mass.

This is the part that gets me tho, how can you tell? My weight can fluctuate by a kilo or so on a day by day basis, despite the fact I am eating the exact same stuff each day. So I guess how do I tell the difference between water retention or fat gain and muscle gain? I'm thinking photos, but even those can be misleading (see comment to JZ above). I was taking regular photos last year, but still somehow missed the signs that I was gaining far too much fat, putting it down to muscle gain.

True LBM for nOObs can be in the region of 200grms a week and for more seasoned trainers and people of higher levels will be pushing 100grms a week. So it is slow and just because you are not putting on kilos a month does not mean you are not re-compositioning your physique A good indication is the progression of your training performance. If it is going forward, chances are so is LBM gains.

So essentially if you are gaining at more than 0.5g a month, chances of the gains being fat related will be much higher. So being in an excessive calorie surplus is not necessary and will only make you next cutting phase so much more hard work (much more restrictive calorie wise and therefor poorer training performance etc).

Increasing your calorie intake does not need to happen regularly. If you are gaining in that 300-400grm per month range stick with the current calorie intake. Once it levels out (both weight gain and training progression) then look at increasing your calories by another 10% and go from there.

I hope that helps you a little mate

Thanks for the detailed response MB, a few questions as above

I'm pretty much going to aim for 0.5kgs per month I'd say. Which is going to be incredibly hard to monitor, given my daily fluctuations, so will have to take regular measurements and pics as well.

 

[TrentZor]

I wanna know what looove iss!!!!



ok no more whoring inn this thread

 

[MaxBrenner]

Thanks for the detailed response MB, a few questions as above

I'm pretty much going to aim for 0.5kgs per month I'd say. Which is going to be incredibly hard to monitor, given my daily fluctuations, so will have to take regular measurements and pics as well.

All good mate.

First off, don't weigh your self daily or even weekly for that matter. As you noted, your weight can up and down on a daily basis and that is due to a number of difference reasons all related to water retention (hormonal fluctuation, previous sodium levels). Photo's will also pick that up

The longer between weigh ins, the better the gauge you will have on your progress. So attempt to weight yourself at the same time of day after the same daily schedule 2-3 weeks apart. The only true indicator will be a DEXA scan, but if that is not an option, like mentioned just look at your monthly progress/averages on the scales etc

 

[jzpowahz]

I've always been a weekly weigh in guy however know of the fluctuations so don't put too much importance on scale numbers.

Some people like to weigh in every day & take averages but that seems way too anal for me.

 

[The Hulk]

Regarding how often you should weigh yourself to track progress.
Wouldn't it be most accurate to weigh yourself daily and chart a linear progression, and simply ignore any days with higher than normal deviation from the mean?

If you weigh yourself 3 weeks apart and the first day you were well hydrated and the 2nd time you were quite dehydrated from hot weather or being overworked, you may come in lighter weight, but quite possibly have gained muscle mass.
The you would mistakenly up your calories because you thought you weren't gaining?

Personally, I like to weigh myself daily first thing in the morning.
90% of the time my weight is within 100-200g of what I was expecting.
I've learned alot about counting calories this year and been very consistent with daily count.

 

[pistachio]

Regarding how often you should weigh yourself to track progress.
Wouldn't it be most accurate to weigh yourself daily and chart a linear progression, and simply ignore any days with higher than normal deviation from the mean?

If you weigh yourself 3 weeks apart and the first day you were well hydrated and the 2nd time you were quite dehydrated from hot weather or being overworked, you may come in lighter weight, but quite possibly have gained muscle mass.
The you would mistakenly up your calories because you thought you weren't gaining?

Personally, I like to weigh myself daily first thing in the morning.
90% of the time my weight is within 100-200g of what I was expecting.
I've learned alot about counting calories this year and been very consistent with daily count.

You mean like this?



I agree with your example. I think such fluctuations are easier to see when weighing daily (ie, you know if you are on a 'high' or 'low' weight day)