Advice/Tips Please (long post - sorry)

[Gnoop]

Hi
I am male, 43 years old. My body’s natural inclination is to be overweight, but every now and then I get fed up with it and go on a health kick. I am quite disciplined and usually lose 20 to 30 kilos, then slowly put it back on. I am presently on one of those health kicks (my fourth one!).
I have analysed my past failures and I believe I know where I have been going wrong. In the past I have dieted, and carried out aerobic activities as well as weight training. I have never been able to build muscle, and understand now that what I was doing was wrong. I don’t believe you can lose weight while building muscle. Not while on a low calorie diet and carrying out intense aerobic workouts.
Anyway, this time around I have approached things differently. I have presently lost 17kgs through walking/jogging, and am hoping to lose 10-12 more. This would give me a BMI of between 23 -25. At somewhere around this point, I will change from fat burning exercises, and begin muscle building exercises. This is phase 2. I have yet to determine what is the optimum weight or fat % to change over to phase 2. I am currently at 23% body fat according to Body Fat scales.
At present I am jogging 3 times a week (6km circuit) and walking 3 times a week (6km circuit). I try to keep my calorie intake to around 1800Cals per day, roughly 50% Carbs, 25% Fat and 25% protein, with no more than 60g of Fat per day. This has allowed me to lose on average 1 kilo a week for the last 17 weeks.
Recently I have started doing a couple of workouts per week on my home gym just to get my body/muscles ready for the eventual muscle building workouts. I am not overdoing it, just three sets of 12 on the major muscle groups at about 80% of my maximum.
Once I “change over” to muscle building, I will increase my calorie intake so that I am hopefully putting on approx 0.5kg of muscle per week. I will probably have to experiment a little, but will start with an increase of 300 calories per day, drop my jogging routine and increase the intensity of my weight training.
I am looking for advice on several questions.
Firstly, is the programme I have set for myself is okay? I think the 1800cals and jogging/walking has been okay and 1 kg per week is not excessive. My body seems to be coping fine, but would not like to think I am doing any harm by losing precious muscle mass.
Secondly, at what point should I be thinking about changing from fat burning to body building? Should I choose a % of body fat or a BMI figure?
Thirdly, is it possible to develop a routine that can be performed over 5 x 50mins per week that will give decent results? I would like to carry out my weight training at a gym nearby to my work during my lunch hour. I can utilise my home gym on the weekend too I suppose.
Fourthly, what sort of objectives or goals should I be setting myself? Physical measurements? Or weight gain without fat gain? Also, should I keep up any aerobic activities once I am in muscle building mode, or will this be counterproductive? Perhaps keep up 2 x 6km walks per week to keep fitness??
Any advice welcome. Cheers
Gnoop

 

[LAMMI]

Hey gnoop, firstly welcome to the forum. I'm only new here also but I'm learning heaps and people's advice really helps. I'll keep my answers short. Remember they are only my opinion and not solid doctrine.

I think you should aim for about 12% bodyfat before you start to bulk. I think you can bulk sufficiently and stay below 12%. You don't have to put on fat while you bulk, you just have to be patient. That way you can look awesome year round.

I would bulk at 3 sessions a week during lunch, doing full body workouts just to start with. Then after a month or so, start focusing on split programs if you like. Your protein should be at least 2g per kg (lean bodyweight) regardless of whether your bulking or not. If your only 25% protein, you need to change it. You should be having 180g of protein at least on a 1800 calorie diet. You can then calculate your carbs and fat accordingly. I usually use a 40:40:20 ratio of protein, carbs, fat.

If you are struggling to figure out your macro's post up what your weight is and current bodyfat. That way I can tell you what you should be eating in terms of how much carbs, fat, protein you should be having, because you be honest, you have them wrong.

 

[Gnoop]

Hi Lammi. Thanks for the advice. I was thinking around 12%-15% body fat, so it is good to hear your opinion is similar. I was intending to alter my protein intake once in muscle building phase, but do you think it is necessary while still in the fat burning stage? I have Calorie Counting software which I have filled in religiously so I know pretty much exactly what my nutrition breakdown is. Current weight is 88kg and body fat (according to body fat scales) is 22%. Let me know if you think the 25:50:25 is out of whack for fat loss. Cheers

 

[MaxBrenner]

Gnoop, again welcome mate.

I would make some simple suggestions to you.

Regardless of what you think or have been told, you can still perform muscular hypertrophy activity while trying to drop bodyfat. If you continue to do 'Toning' style weight training, that is only hampering your overall body composition results.

Regardless of body composition 'phase' your resistance training should be, in general, nearly identical. To grow muscle and/or maintain muscle mass regardless of calorie intake, you must perform muscular hypertrophy resistance training. FYI, the amount of 'muscle' you are thinking you will be gaining is UNREALISTIC

Dropping Bodyfat simply comes down to you being in a CALORIE DEFICIT. Nothing else. Weather you choose to be in a calorie deficit purely from diet without the need for any cardio at all. Cardio = Unnecessary. Cardio is only beneficial for being able to consume a larger amount of daily calorie. But you still must be in a deficit overall.

Dieting percentages are meaningless, you need to ensure you have calculated your required calorie intake and ensure you are meeting your MINIMUM protein requirements (2.2grms per kg) and Fat requirements (0.8grams per kg). The rest of the calorie can be made up to how you wish. Just as long as you are consuming the appropriate calories for your goal and that the macronutrient minimums are being met that is what contributes to body composition.

BMI means nothing, you need to work out your BMR etc. BMI is just a useless government tool

 

[Gnoop]

Hi Maxbrenner. Thanks for your advice. It has prompted some further reading and it would appear my protein intake is definitely insufficient. I will be increasing this, and trying for a 40:40:20 ratio.

I will continue to keep the separate phases of my project, mostly for reasons of time limitations. I accept that my targets for weight gain are probably a bit ambitious, but what would be a reasonable expectation? I think it will be important to have an idea in mind of appropriate gains, in order to establish calorie levels.

I think my BMR is 1900 cals, and I have been averaging 500 cal in exercise per day to give me a deficit of 3500clas per week. This has given me the 1kg loss per week . So it would appear 3500 would equate to a kilo. So what gain should I factor in to my calculations for calorie intake surplus? Eg. To gain 0.25 of a kilo per week, I would increase my calorie intake by 3500/4 = 875 per week. Over a seven day period this would be 125cals per day.

I know I will have to suck and see to some extent, but a starting point would be good. Is 0.25kg per week reasonable expectation, and do these figures sound about right? Cheers

 

[MaxBrenner]

No problem mate

Though I do stress to you, do not focus on dietary percentages. Focus on meeting minimum macronutrient requirements and overall calorie intake. What percentages it breaks down into is meaningless

Your 'theory' in the weight gain department may be true on 'paper' but in 'reality' there is simply way to many variables and factors out of your control that determine the amount of muscle gain to overall weight gain.

Have a read of these -

What’s My Genetic Muscular Potential? | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald

Fat-Free Mass Index in Users and NonUsers of Anabolic-Androgen Steroids - Research Review | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald

 

[dave]

Hey Gnoop, I hope this helps.

Hi
I am male, 43 years old. My body’s natural inclination is to be overweight.

No one is naturally inclined to be overweight we just get this way due to an abundance of food and less need to exercise. Thinking this way is a subtle excuse and I am sure everyone who has gotten overweight (me included) has thought this. Stop it in it's tracks and instead replace it with "I have chosen to be like this but I do not want to be".

but every now and then I get fed up with it and go on a health kick. I am quite disciplined and usually lose 20 to 30 kilos, then slowly put it back on. I am presently on one of those health kicks (my fourth one!).

You are not and never have been on a health kick, you are wanting to be healthy and are doing it. Remember that point, a "health kick" is a temporary thing that goes away quite quickly, you are going to be healthy for the rest of your life.

I have analysed my past failures and I believe I know where I have been going wrong. In the past I have dieted, and carried out aerobic activities as well as weight training. I have never been able to build muscle, and understand now that what I was doing was wrong. I don’t believe you can lose weight while building muscle. Not while on a low calorie diet and carrying out intense aerobic workouts.

A few questions for you to answer.

Why do you need to do intense aerobic workouts?

Why don't you think you can gain muscle and lose fat at the same time? (Write your answer first and then please see BigJim's training log from start to finish and then check what you have written)

Are you sure you did not build any muscle?

And could you also detail what your old exercise programs were like as my idea of weight training has been vastly different to what many of my clients think is weight training.

Anyway, this time around I have approached things differently. I have presently lost 17kgs through walking/jogging, and am hoping to lose 10-12 more. This would give me a BMI of between 23 -25. At somewhere around this point, I will change from fat burning exercises, and begin muscle building exercises. This is phase 2. I have yet to determine what is the optimum weight or fat % to change over to phase 2. I am currently at 23% body fat according to Body Fat scales.

17kg loss is good and so is walking well done you are on your way to STAYING healthy. As Max said BMI is useless stop using it, just use body fat %, girth measurements, photos and a set of scales. I like to get my client to take a photo once a month in the exact same position, lighting, time etc and mark this with their current weight (add body fat % from your scales but do not believe it is that accurate).

What makes you think jogging is a fat burning exercise and weight training is not?

At present I am jogging 3 times a week (6km circuit) and walking 3 times a week (6km circuit). I try to keep my calorie intake to around 1800Cals per day, roughly 50% Carbs, 25% Fat and 25% protein, with no more than 60g of Fat per day. This has allowed me to lose on average 1 kilo a week for the last 17 weeks.

Once again great work on sticking with it keep it up. Max has given you good info and there is more on the site about this. Also try his blog and all the links from it as there are some really good writers out there for you to learn from.

Remember fat is not bad, carbs are not bad, protein is awesome.

Another question. Why do you jog? Do you like it? Does it get boring?

Recently I have started doing a couple of workouts per week on my home gym just to get my body/muscles ready for the eventual muscle building workouts. I am not overdoing it, just three sets of 12 on the major muscle groups at about 80% of my maximum.

Getting towards a much better idea than jogging. What does your home gym consist of?

Once I “change over” to muscle building, I will increase my calorie intake so that I am hopefully putting on approx 0.5kg of muscle per week. I will probably have to experiment a little, but will start with an increase of 300 calories per day, drop my jogging routine and increase the intensity of my weight training.

0.5kg of muscle per week is not a realistic goal as Max said, choose a look or weight you want to be in the future and stick to that. Say in 6 months you want 5kg of BW more but at the same body fat %. This would not be pure muscle as you would be heavier so the subsequent body fat % would lead to a higher total fat mass.

I am looking for advice on several questions.
Firstly, is the programme I have set for myself is okay? I think the 1800cals and jogging/walking has been okay and 1 kg per week is not excessive. My body seems to be coping fine, but would not like to think I am doing any harm by losing precious muscle mass.

0.5-1kg p/w is a good area to go for but do not fret if 1 week you drop nothing, give it 2 weeks minimum to see if you have stalled. If in 2 weeks you have not lost more weight then adjust exercise and diet accordingly.

Secondly, at what point should I be thinking about changing from fat burning to body building?

Answer those q's above and I will get back to you with the answer once you have thought about it.

Thirdly, is it possible to develop a routine that can be performed over 5 x 50mins per week that will give decent results? I would like to carry out my weight training at a gym nearby to my work during my lunch hour. I can utilise my home gym on the weekend too I suppose.

3 days for 50 minutes would be great for weight training with a properly calculated diet. You can still exercise on the other days but that depends on other factors that we can go into later.

Fourthly, what sort of objectives or goals should I be setting myself? Physical measurements? Or weight gain without fat gain? Also, should I keep up any aerobic activities once I am in muscle building mode, or will this be counterproductive? Perhaps keep up 2 x 6km walks per week to keep fitness??

Another question for later.

 

[MaxBrenner]

Dave brings up some great points. Looking forward to OP's answers.

Dave, correct if I'm wrong but in my experience I have always found that people think doing 'jogging' is 'healthy' and is necessary when trying to live a 'healthy lifestyle'. Also they have the misconception that if they 'jog' they are 'burning fat' etc. I just falls back to all the misguided information and typical 'healthy lifestyle' promotional material the governments put out. That can be said for nearly all of OP's reasoning for doing things or his expectations on muscle growth, training style and nutritional protocol (no flame on OP).

If someone loves running etc that is all well and good. Hell my wife loves running but there ain't no way I'm doing that LOL But for body composition and the desired body composition she likes to keep, she realizes that running will not lead to her overall desired goal. Weight training, correct calorie and macronutrient intake are require if you wish to have a physique that resembles anything other than a distance runner. I'd like to help get that message across to the mainstream.

 

[dave]

Max you have a habit of ruining lessons with putting up the answers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dave brings up some great points. Looking forward to OP's answers.

Dave, correct if I'm wrong but in my experience I have always found that people think doing 'jogging' is 'healthy' and is necessary when trying to live a 'healthy lifestyle'. Also they have the misconception that if they 'jog' they are 'burning fat' etc. I just falls back to all the misguided information and typical 'healthy lifestyle' promotional material the governments put out. That can be said for nearly all of OP's reasoning for doing things or his expectations on muscle growth, training style and nutritional protocol (no flame on OP).

If someone loves running etc that is all well and good. Hell my wife loves running but there ain't no way I'm doing that LOL But for body composition and the desired body composition she likes to keep, she realizes that running will not lead to her overall desired goal. Weight training, correct calorie and macronutrient intake are require if you wish to have a physique that resembles anything other than a distance runner. I'd like to help get that message across to the mainstream.

 

[MaxBrenner]

Max you have a habit of ruining lessons with putting up the answers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So I buggered up the point you where trying to make? Sorry Dave, my bad.

 

[dave]

So I buggered up the point you where trying to make? Sorry Dave, my bad.

I think all the sugar induced highs are giving you itchy typing fingers syndrome.

Gnoop. Max's blog has a link to Emma leigh Synott's page. Go there and read her basic info it is a great way to learn the basics.

 

[MaxBrenner]

I think all the sugar induced highs are giving you itchy typing fingers syndrome.

Gnoop. Max's blog has a link to Emma leigh Synott's page. Go there and read her basic info it is a great way to learn the basics.

Disregarding carbs, acquiring fats. That might help LOL

 

[Gnoop]

Thanks Guys. This is great. I feel there is so much misinformation out there that it is hard to know what to believe. You've given me some good reading material to keep me busy for a while. I’ll try to answer the questions you asked.

Why do you need to do intense aerobic workouts?

Time really. I just want to get on with it. I have quite a bit of weight to lose and not a lot of time to lose it in (1 hr per day) So I thought this would be the most efficient way to burn fat. (or create calorie deficit).

Why don't you think you can gain muscle and lose fat at the same time? (Write your answer first and then please see BigJim's training log from start to finish and then check what you have written)

Couldn’t find Bigjims Training Log. Link? I just thought it would be impossible to create muscle with a calorie deficit. Wouldn't the body use protein as fuel?

Are you sure you did not build any muscle?

I certainly didn’t see any noticeable muscle growth. But on reflection my workouts were pretty low intensity, and if I’m honest, I was mostly going through the motions. I don’t think I ever really pushed myself.

And could you also detail what your old exercise programs were like as my idea of weight training has been vastly different to what many of my clients think is weight training.

My exercise programs generally consisted of whatever the free gym introductory assessment recommended. And I pretty much stuck to that, mostly with my eye on the clock/door. I thought of it as a chore. I am hoping this time to actually enjoy the process, and put some effort in.

What makes you think jogging is a fat burning exercise and weight training is not?

Once again, I am only thinking of efficiency. I think jogging will burn more calories in the limited time I have available.

Another question. Why do you jog? Do you like it? Does it get boring?

I do not enjoy jogging. It seems the quickest way to get my heart pumping quickly and keep it there.

What does your home gym consist of?

It’s just a cheapy. As I am hoping to workout during lunch break so I am happy to use the nearby gym.

Once again thanks for your help guys.