Training a union prop.

[Oli]

You didn't get attacked, just that starting strength was a poor decision

why is it? he needs something non specific to improve his strength.

 

[Bazza20]

I can see what Oliver is saying.

Of course there are many other aspects that are important to his game but this bloke has come to sticky to get him stronger as an extra to the training with his club. He will or should be doing the other aspects of training at his club. I'm assuming stickys gym is not set up to take players through rugby skills and technique practice.

He is at a strength gym so the basics of it should be to get him stronger which Sticky will no doubt be doing.

 

[0ni]

why is it? he needs something non specific to improve his strength.

When you've had to balance out strength training with training for your sport you'll understand quite clearly why

 

[Goosey]

A basic template of barbell exercises progressively adding weight will do wonders.

I'll listen to Oli 0ni.
But I listen to 0ni also.

There is really no argument here

Get strong in the hip and legs, this is where power originates.

 

[0ni]

Because squatting heavy for 3 sets of 5 twice a week will interfere with skills training!
SS is a squat routine. That's what it is for, increasing your squat. Yes it has other lifts in there but it's primary purpose is for a big squat. There are much better ways to go about doing it. I'm sure Sticky will have one or two ideas but this is how I would lay it out, assuming that he trains for his sport on Tuesday and Thursday as is common where I am.

Monday:
Squat: 10 lifts total. 3x3, 5x2, 2x5, 10x1, 1x10 etc. Start at 50% of max and increase 10% a session until you hit 80% of training max. Then go back to 55% and work up to 85%. Then back to 60% and work up to 90% and so on. Training max stays static and is only increased if max is tested for whatever reason. Use compensatory acceleration.
Press: Same as squat. Any pressing movement can be used here. Bench, incline, push press, strict press etc. Just keep it the same movement for a few cycles.
Pull: Same as squat and again, keep it the same movement for a few cycles. Deadlifts against bands seem pretty good bang-for-buck wise

Tuesday:
Sports Training

Wednesday:
Mobility drills + conditioning

Thursday:
Sports Training

Friday:
Dynamic Training
This session is a dynamic session to work on speed and rate of force development. You'll want to use the same template of squat/press/pull here, do jumping, short sprints and so on. The key here is to work on speed without interfering with the match tomorrow. Even to prime the CNS ready for the match

Saturday:
Possible Matches


The programming used for the strength day is one invented by Dan John for his athletes that increases strength but never interferes with training. Any idiot can wear an athlete out. The goal is to keep the goal the goal, which is excellence in rugby. The athlete will never be sore doing this and will stay fresh & eager for more. Constantly striving for that 2.5kg gain onto your 3x5RM every session is not something every athlete can do and grinding weights out is very tiring. Great for athletes in the offseason or those who do nothing but lift, not so good for athletes that do other things

 

[Oli]

The guy squats 140kg. squatting twice a week isn't going to interfere with his training unless he has the recovery ability of my 80 year old grandma.

'Dynamic work' is a whole discussion in itself as the science behind it is lacking, and even if it isn't the trainee needs little more than a power clean.

 

[0ni]

Since when did strength levels correlate with recovery times?
How is the science in the dynamic effort method lacking?
If all you needed was powercleans to become explosive, Bunnings would have an olympic team.

Strength is a secondary objective in Rugby. There is no need to squat twice a week. Squat 1RM is not a priority. I'm sure OP could also throw a shot every day and adequately recover, should it be made a priority? I would imagine not. The role of the S+C is not to get away with as much as possible, it's to keep the athlete as fresh as possible. Squatting heavy twice a week does not do this. Once a week with moderate loads is plenty, especially under good coaching. The rest of the time should be spent on the priorities which are game skills as number 1, conditioning as number 2 and being fast as number 3. Strength training just keeps everything ticking over and raises the threshold of improvement in the other areas.

 

[0ni]

The routine I posted essentially makes the previous 1RM an ~80% weight in 20 weeks. That would make the 1RM ~175kg or a 25% increase on the squat in 20 weeks at a minimum with practically fuck all effort wise. Low risk, low reward but still adequate

 

[Oli]

Since when did strength levels correlate with recovery times?

Thats the difference between daily and weekly periodisation. shit man, did you actually read practical programming?

How is the science in the dynamic effort method lacking?
If all you needed was powercleans to become explosive, Bunnings would have an olympic team.

DE method of lifting barbells - Styrketræning - Forum

Nice analogy - comparing lifting a 10kg box with a power clean.

Strength is a secondary objective in Rugby. There is no need to squat twice a week. Squat 1RM is not a priority. I'm sure OP could also throw a shot every day and adequately recover, should it be made a priority? I would imagine not. The role of the S+C is not to get away with as much as possible, it's to keep the athlete as fresh as possible. Squatting heavy twice a week does not do this. Once a week with moderate loads is plenty, especially under good coaching. The rest of the time should be spent on the priorities which are game skills as number 1, conditioning as number 2 and being fast as number 3. Strength training just keeps everything ticking over and raises the threshold of improvement in the other areas.

Who do you coach, a girl's soccer team? squatting x3 a week has been precedent with most rugby/football teams.

 

[0ni]

Thats the difference between daily and weekly periodisation. shit man, did you actually read practical programming?



DE method of lifting barbells - Styrketræning - Forum

Nice analogy - comparing lifting a 10kg box with a power clean.



Who do you coach, a girl's soccer team? squatting x3 a week has been precedent with most rugby/football teams.

If you actually read Practical Programming correctly you'd know that those models were set up based on:

Doing the 5x5 program (so other programs would have different curves)
Supercompensation (not recovery time!)

You'd also notice that the comprehensive recovery processes curves remained static. But this is all irrelevant and beside the original points which you haven't addressed!

 

[0ni]

lol I just read that article
he doesn't say that the dynamic effort methods are bad
he states that "the DE method of lifting barbells is not necessary for developing maximal strength."
but he isn't going to use the dynamic effort method to increase his maximal strength is he!?
he's doing to get better at jumping & sprinting, faster and performing a large amount of work in a short amount of time

 

[Oli]

lol I just read that article
he doesn't say that the dynamic effort methods are bad
he states that "the DE method of lifting barbells is not necessary for developing maximal strength."
but he isn't going to use the dynamic effort method to increase his maximal strength is he!?
he's doing to get better at jumping & sprinting, faster and performing a large amount of work in a short amount of time

Question
Sports Training-Thinker-What if any sportsmen do you feel benefits from lifting loads that represent 40-60% of one's 1rm in the sq/bp. Fmax (explosive strength development) can be achieved in the squat lifting 80% while not necessarily trying to find a weight that you can move the barbell at the greatest possible speed? The dynamic effort method taxes the CNS in a manner that has a lower dynamic correspondence so you choose to use those reserves on something of high correspondence? In addition does building absolute strength while developing rate of force development (jumps throw sprints) account for the strength necessary to complete throws/lifts of other sportsmen of equal size in say wrestling?


Answer
Frank, if we consider the most specific motor adaptation of lifting 40-60%1RM, on a barbell, as fast as possible then we know that the result is greater speed with that range of resistance on that exercise. From that standpoint we would have to consider what sport disciplines demand that a barbell be squatted, presses, or deadlifted with 40-60%1RM as fast as possible.

Of course no such discipline exists.

Moving further along the continuum of specificity we may begin to consider more non-specific representations of any type of external resistance, for instance, that represents 40-60%1RM of one of the athletes barbell maximums.

As we move further away from the actual special exercise we see how we may draw more and more correlations; however, this comes at the expense of less and less transference.

It's an interesting topic of debate because the 40-60%1RM range is truly a purgatory, training percentage wise, from the standpoint of practical application.

Nearly all of the Soviet and overseas literature points to the efficacy of training loads below or above that percentage range in order to develop speed strength (lower) or explosive and absolute strength (above).

The 60% percent rule seems to be most prevalent regarding restorative work and the percentage drop off in training load volume for deloading purposes.

We know that tendo numbers seem to register highest (power output wise) in the 40-60 percentage range; however, training for highest power output is a nebulous statement and again we must come back to the training means.

Registering high power output pressing, squatting, pulling 40-60%1RM on an accelerometer tells us only one thing for sure and that is that the lifter is generating X amount of power output on THAT EXERCISE WITH THAT LOAD IN PARTICULAR. It tells us very little with respect to what the athlete is capable of doing on the field, ice, mat, snow, track, against an opponent, throwing an implement that weighs less than 8kilos, swinging a hockey stick, pushing a bobsled, etc.

There's a reason why you don't see any meaningful attention paid to the speed at which one could squat, press, deadlift with 40-60%1RM in Dr. Bondarchuk's transference tables, Dr Verkhoshansky's literature or most if not all of the translated literature available to us Westerners.

A note to those who swear by the dynamic effort method of squatting, pressing, and pulling: If there was something particularly special about lifting those loads as fast as possible on a barbell don't you think that the greatest minds and coaches in the history of recorded sport would have popularized its use.

I don't say these things to criticize those who adhere to lifting 40-60%1RM on a barbell as fast as possible.

I say these things to encourage those people to question the possibility of whether there exists a more effective means of training relative to their objective.

1

 

[0ni]

"but he isn't going to use the dynamic effort method to increase his maximal strength is he!?
he's doing to get better at jumping & sprinting, faster and performing a large amount of work in a short amount of time"

 

[Oli]

"but he isn't going to use the dynamic effort method to increase his maximal strength is he!?
he's doing to get better at jumping & sprinting, faster and performing a large amount of work in a short amount of time"

fuck dude can you read?

Registering high power output pressing, squatting, pulling 40-60%1RM on an accelerometer tells us only one thing for sure and that is that the lifter is generating X amount of power output on THAT EXERCISE WITH THAT LOAD IN PARTICULAR. It tells us very little with respect to what the athlete is capable of doing on the field, ice, mat, snow, track, against an opponent, throwing an implement that weighs less than 8kilos, swinging a hockey stick, pushing a bobsled, etc.

 

[Sticky]

Fuck me. I leave the forum for 2 days and the shit hits the fan.
Stop. Now.

This is my thread, about how I'm going to strength and condition my prop.

Thanks for the offer mahooney

 

[Sticky]

Im cleaning out the rubbish in this thread.

 

[Sticky]

You were warned Oli

 

[0ni]

Regarding whether or not the DE method with weights is good for improving qualities such as sprint speed, vertical jump and so on there were a few studies done in Copenhagen done with kettlebells.

One group of trained athletes did the RDL. The other group did kettlebell snatches. The kettlebell group got an average gain of 15kg on the RDL and the RDL group got an average gain of just 5kg.

In another study by the same group, found that people added 3 to 8 centimeters (or approximately 1 to 3 inches) to their standing vertical jump after just two weeks of explosive snatching of ridiculously light kettlebells (8 kg for women, 12 kg for men). In the same experiment, another group of people added only an average of 2 centimeters (less than 1 inch) to their SVJ from doing plyometrics for the same amount of time.

 

[adamklam]

Im cleaning out the rubbish in this thread.

any updates on your prop?

 

[Sticky]

Neil pulled 225kg x1 on wednesday night and benched 125.

He cant squat at the moment due to injuring his shoulder in a scrum about 6 weeks ago.

He can OH fine, bench fine, but just cant get under a bar.

He has been doing 5x5 at around 130kg on the safety bar.

He has been doing prowler sprints with 80-100kg over 15m in under 8 seconds.
180kg prowler pushes for 7m then 225kg tyre flips x4

He has gotten a shit ton fitter and stronger on the field and is holding his own against the grade higher.

He is loving it.

Unfortunately though, he is moving back to ireland at the end of the year, and will be taking up powerlifting lol.