myst
Member
Absolutely, pump out the waste and force new blood into the area.
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Absolutely, pump out the waste and force new blood into the area.
myst
Member
Depends on how tight and how many wraps of the tube you could get. The compression bands you can get stupid tight and cause limbs to drop off if you're not careful
taurus
Well-known member
ok cool
with corks i found stretch and ice was better than anything. I had plenty & tried the massage on it, made it WORSE. Aggressive stretching of a cork got it sorted within 24hrs... fwiw
Depends on how tight and how many wraps of the tube you could get. The compression bands you can get stupid tight and cause limbs to drop off if you're not careful
I had funny spiral cuts and bruises. It was tight enough.
Or perhaps too tight!
Hypertrophic89
New member
R.I.C.E should be used almost immediately after an injury and continued for a day or so afterwards. Like stated above depending on the injury and the symptoms of the affected will determine wether ice or heat should be applied. Heat will dilate veins and capillaries which will increase the amount of blood flow to the area. Ice will constrict and reduce the amount of blood flow to the area. So if its a fresh injury and swelling is occurring you would naturally want to reduce the amount of blood going to the area. Old injuries and muscle strains heat is the better option trying to increase the blood flow for rejuvenation.
M@YHEM
Member
Hypertrophic89
New member
This is what research and testing on myself and patients has shown. I'm not arguing other methods or theories just trying to simplify the whole ice or heat issue for people.
M@YHEM
Member
I thought he simplified it quite well in the video. Icing stops the 'message' from being sent to the injured area. Yes ice may make it feel better short term but its not helping the recovery..
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I apologise in advance for how long and wordy this post is....
I read this thread a while ago and I see that it is still going. As painful as it was I have finally watched the whole video, I thought I would spend a minute or two going through my take on it. My first thought is that he has a very poor understanding of basic immunology.
He claims that evolution has made us a perfect human machine. Implying that inflammation is a perfect response to all injury. This is not true. The body has trouble telling the difference between, for instance, an infection and tissue trauma from say a sprained ankle.
Acute inflammation (ie from neutrophils) is a non specific reaction which causes reasonably indiscriminate destruction of an area. This is great for things like infection where you want to destroy a pathogen even at the cost of destruction of native tissue (at least as a stop gap measure until the adaptive immune system can be mobilised). It is not so great if there is no pathogen and only your own tissue that is getting destroyed. Evolution doesn't really care about this too much as you don't usually die if your immune system causing a bit of extra destruction from a sprain, whereas you may die if your body can't get on top of infections quickly.
Luckily we ourselves are able to tell the difference and can modulate acute inflammation depending on the cause. Eg steroids injections are amazing at reducing inflammation from musculoskeletal injury (eg this can be great in lower back pain to prevent a chronic pain syndrome) but you would definitely not want to inject steroids into an infection.
Ice is good for reducing acute inflammation and stopping neutrophils degranulating and releasing destructive chemicals. Once the period of acute inflammation is over (and the number of neutrophils in the area has decreased) heat is good for promoting removal of damaged tissue and supplying nutrients to the area promoting healing.
He talks about swelling and how movement of muscles gets rid of the extra fluid through the lymphatic system. The reason you get swelling is that inflammation causes increased permeability of capillaries in the area causing more fluid to leak out into the interstitial tissue. Sure, movement and TENS will cause extra movement of fluid through the lymphatic system but it is effective to use anti-inflammatories to not only reduce neutrophils destroying tissue but also decreasing the amount of fluid leaking from the capillaries into the interstitial space (This is a key concept he does not understand).
In terms of rest and ice
* Rest is important, they even say you should not do enough movement to cause additional injury to the area. Sure a little bit of movement is fine but the point of the R in RICE is that you should not push yourself too much after an injury and cause more inflammation.
*Ice, he says ice will cause more congestion of interstitial fluid increasing swelling, this is wrong. Ice reduces inflammation which decreases capillary permeability thereby reducing swelling. The reduction in fluid leakage into the tissue is greater than any "congestion" they claim. Yes, icing will slow down the healing process because you are not clearing damaged tissue and not getting nutrients to the area HOWEVER it also reduces tissue damage caused by acute inflammation which is more important (this another key concept he is missing). In the ideal world we would stop the destructive aspects of acute inflammation and only have the positive healing effects increased blood flow but we are yet to cheaply and effectively achieve this. Instead we reduce inflammation and then let our bodies move onto the next step which is healing and regeneration, we can also artificially increase blood flow at this later stage eg using heat packs a couple of days after the injury once inflammation has subsided to further promote recovery.
He says that in the phases of healing, inflammation is the first step and that by stopping inflammation you halt the healing process. This is simply wrong, sure a little bit of inflammation is required to get rid of damaged tissue but a lot of inflammation causes more harm than good. You can curtail the inflammatory response and still have excellent regeneration and repair afterwards.
I read this thread a while ago and I see that it is still going. As painful as it was I have finally watched the whole video, I thought I would spend a minute or two going through my take on it. My first thought is that he has a very poor understanding of basic immunology.
He claims that evolution has made us a perfect human machine. Implying that inflammation is a perfect response to all injury. This is not true. The body has trouble telling the difference between, for instance, an infection and tissue trauma from say a sprained ankle.
Acute inflammation (ie from neutrophils) is a non specific reaction which causes reasonably indiscriminate destruction of an area. This is great for things like infection where you want to destroy a pathogen even at the cost of destruction of native tissue (at least as a stop gap measure until the adaptive immune system can be mobilised). It is not so great if there is no pathogen and only your own tissue that is getting destroyed. Evolution doesn't really care about this too much as you don't usually die if your immune system causing a bit of extra destruction from a sprain, whereas you may die if your body can't get on top of infections quickly.
Luckily we ourselves are able to tell the difference and can modulate acute inflammation depending on the cause. Eg steroids injections are amazing at reducing inflammation from musculoskeletal injury (eg this can be great in lower back pain to prevent a chronic pain syndrome) but you would definitely not want to inject steroids into an infection.
Ice is good for reducing acute inflammation and stopping neutrophils degranulating and releasing destructive chemicals. Once the period of acute inflammation is over (and the number of neutrophils in the area has decreased) heat is good for promoting removal of damaged tissue and supplying nutrients to the area promoting healing.
He talks about swelling and how movement of muscles gets rid of the extra fluid through the lymphatic system. The reason you get swelling is that inflammation causes increased permeability of capillaries in the area causing more fluid to leak out into the interstitial tissue. Sure, movement and TENS will cause extra movement of fluid through the lymphatic system but it is effective to use anti-inflammatories to not only reduce neutrophils destroying tissue but also decreasing the amount of fluid leaking from the capillaries into the interstitial space (This is a key concept he does not understand).
In terms of rest and ice
* Rest is important, they even say you should not do enough movement to cause additional injury to the area. Sure a little bit of movement is fine but the point of the R in RICE is that you should not push yourself too much after an injury and cause more inflammation.
*Ice, he says ice will cause more congestion of interstitial fluid increasing swelling, this is wrong. Ice reduces inflammation which decreases capillary permeability thereby reducing swelling. The reduction in fluid leakage into the tissue is greater than any "congestion" they claim. Yes, icing will slow down the healing process because you are not clearing damaged tissue and not getting nutrients to the area HOWEVER it also reduces tissue damage caused by acute inflammation which is more important (this another key concept he is missing). In the ideal world we would stop the destructive aspects of acute inflammation and only have the positive healing effects increased blood flow but we are yet to cheaply and effectively achieve this. Instead we reduce inflammation and then let our bodies move onto the next step which is healing and regeneration, we can also artificially increase blood flow at this later stage eg using heat packs a couple of days after the injury once inflammation has subsided to further promote recovery.
He says that in the phases of healing, inflammation is the first step and that by stopping inflammation you halt the healing process. This is simply wrong, sure a little bit of inflammation is required to get rid of damaged tissue but a lot of inflammation causes more harm than good. You can curtail the inflammatory response and still have excellent regeneration and repair afterwards.
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M@YHEM
Member
So your saying he is right just not to the extremes he talks about.
He also mentions that R.I.C.E is big business...you seem to be in the 'business'..?
Some of the things he talks about is half right but overall I am saying he is wrong. You should not use heat in the acute phase of inflammation, it does more harm than good.
Yes I am a health professional. Is RICE big business? No.
There is no money in recommending rest, ice, compression and elevation. This is extremely cheap treatment that can be done with household items.
There is more money in selling expensive treatment options..... such as the MARC PRO.... which the guy talking sells...
Yes I am a health professional. Is RICE big business? No.
There is no money in recommending rest, ice, compression and elevation. This is extremely cheap treatment that can be done with household items.
There is more money in selling expensive treatment options..... such as the MARC PRO.... which the guy talking sells...
M@YHEM
Member
strong enough?
Member
it seriously sounds like the rhetoric employed by quacks when they refer to their Big Pharma strawman.