"speed training"

[lkt004]

It's all about training the body to quickly recruit motor neuron groups to fire the appropriate muscle fiber groups (in this case Type II and IIa, IIa is the most important for rate of force development).

 

[Chisholm]

This is what I am thinking. Are you actually getting "faster"? Has anyone actually hit a true max and though "damn that was a slow rep", done speed work for a while and actually lifted a max weight faster than before?

I will comment now for me a ~90-95% 1RM usually moves quite fast, whereas before programming in speed work I would be starting to grind above say ~85%. And be able to cope with far less volume @ higher %. But yes of course technique improvement could account for both of these.

Volume and speed work are not one in the same. using 45% of your max is not going to be all that beneficial for learning the lift once the load starts to increase. Doing 40kg speed squats won't help you learn to squat with 90kg if your max is 100. Does that make sense (tired and not sure if it makes sense).


Most novices and beginners just need to get stronger, not faster.

I treat volume and speed work as inter-related, with much higher percentages than 45%. For example I ramp up from ~65 to 80% for triples in small increments. By the end I've gotten in a heap of volume.

Yes too low a % does jack-all as you need some weight to stimulate some kind of technique breakdown and subsequent correction/maintenance. Yes Westside etc often use lower % for speed work, but that's with band or chains added and sometimes gear too.

No one is suggesting novices focus on speed INSTEAD of getting stronger, I think we are discussing speed work in ADDITION to heavier strength/muscle building work.

Is rate of force development a trainable skill?

Why wouldn't it be? you are training the nervous system to recruit motor units in a more efficient manner via stimulus and adaptation. Though in practice I've formed this opinion mostly on personal experience/broscience. Before I got into lifting, I played volleyball and futsal. Using plyometrics and sprint work with no weights I made rather significant improvements in my vertical and speed.

Though I should point out I was well above average 'naturally' even with a terrible strength base. In contrast, I have a mate with huge pressing strength yet is naturally a slow fucker and seems unable to make a great deal of progress on this.

What's also interesting, recent tests say my athletism has further improved significantly, despite the fact I only occasionally sprint or jump now.

 

[Bazza20]

Something about speed training obviously works as plenty of strong people seem to get results with it but I'm no where near strong enough yet to need it so I don't worry about it.

 

[Goosey]

0ni, what do you think?

In general, speed of movement should always be as great as possible; but in practice, this does not mean the actual movement will be very fast-because if the resistance is high as it should be
then the maximum *possible* speed of movement may in fact be quite slow.

 

[vonfram88]

Hatfield was one of the early proponents of dynamic effort. He refers to it as "compensatory acceleration".

I think as part of a holistic training system, it works. Too much limit strength work will wear you down. Conversely, too much speed work will reduce your capacity to generate maximum force.

In powerlifting the conundrum is in the name. Powerlifting is about limit strength. Weightlifting is the discipline that really requires power.

My concern, as with all training techniques is the the potential for chronic overuse injury. Speed work needs to be used sensibly as there is a tendency for hyperextension - the nemesis of connective tissue longevity. A high velocity movement with a moderate weight also has significantly more impact on the body than a maximal weight at low velocity. It's like a sledgehammer versus a bench vice.

 

[Goosey]

It's also important to understand that momentarily exhausted power potential is replaced very quickly but the resulting drain on the overall recovery ability is not compensated for quickly.
Restoring most of the power potential is a matter of seconds but restoring the recovery ability is a couple of days in most.

 

[0ni]

0ni, what do you think?

In general, speed of movement should always be as great as possible; but in practice, this does not mean the actual movement will be very fast-because if the resistance is high as it should be
then the maximum *possible* speed of movement may in fact be quite slow.

I think that reps are superior to dynamic effort work for the vast majority of trainees. As you do reps your force curve will flatten as you get fatigued so you get more time under tension in your weakest range of motion. So you also get better at grinding which will ultimately lead to bigger weights as you can push a weight for longer. I dont see what the difference between ME and DE is regarding rate of force development as youre using "max effort" both times. Does the push press increase your bottom end strength on the press? This is how i see bands & chains. They overload the strongest part of your ROM where it makes more sense to me to overload the weakest part with reps.

 

[strong enough?]

With bands and chains, if you select the amount of resistance appropriately, it can actually have a training effect on the weakest part, because you rely on an increased rate of force production in order to overcome accomodating resistance.

Bench plus chains is different to a push press. A push press allows the use of hip drive to accelerate the bar past the sticking point. With chains you are still relying on the same agonists as the straight version of the lift. There is less loading at the bottom portion of the lift, but the accomodating resistance can help teach some lifters to create more force where the lift is otherwise weakest to create the acceleration necessary to complete the lift.

I also think band/chain squat is different to a squat with knee wraps for similar reasons.

 

[Goosey]

Wtf?

 

[vonfram88]

I have an ingrown toenail

 

[Darkoz]

My head's hurting again

 

[NAPARM]

Bench is different to overhead press, who would have thought!

 

[0ni]

For a raw lifter the hardest part is a few inches off the bottom. I cant figure out how youd set up chains so that most of the load comes on at this point. Deadlift i can see because you have the double weakness but with bench and squats it seems most of the load comes on too late in the ROM. So i still think pausing and reps would be more effective

 

[Goosey]

For a raw lifter the hardest part is a few inches off the bottom. I cant figure out how youd set up chains so that most of the load comes on at this point. Deadlift i can see because you have the double weakness but with bench and squats it seems most of the load comes on too late in the ROM. So i still think pausing and reps would be more effective

On the chain thing, which has it's limitations, and this idea is as old as dirt:
Only useful for squatting, as the barbell is lifted off the ground, the length of chain, which needs to be significantly heavy adds to the weight of the bar, from nid-range to standing fully erect the moment arm (resistance) reduces dramatically, the chain adds weight to the bar adding resistance the further one approaches the fully erect position, wherby most of the resistance is being supported by the bones.

In this case finding a good leg-press ensures that the muscles resposible for squatting are exercised in a proper manner:

1.a rotational form of resistance, rotating on a common axis with the involved joint of the body.

2.an automatically variable form of resistance that varies instantly as movement occurs.

3.balanced resistance that varies in accordance with the actual requirements of the muscles in different positions.

4.resistance that is provided in a stretched starting position; which requires a range of movement in the machine that actually exceeds the possible range of movement of the user.

5. negative work potential

6.positive work potential

7.pre-stretching; a factor that is required during the last one or two repetitions of a set of high-intensity movements

8.resistance that is provided in the finishing position of the movement, the only position of full muscular contraction

 

[strong enough?]

For a raw lifter the hardest part is a few inches off the bottom. I cant figure out how youd set up chains so that most of the load comes on at this point. Deadlift i can see because you have the double weakness but with bench and squats it seems most of the load comes on too late in the ROM. So i still think pausing and reps would be more effective

Most of the load doesn't have to come on at the sticking point. All you are doing is trying to build the rate of force production immediately before the sticking point.

For raw, to achieve this you just use much less chain weight than you would use for equipped. Yes it overloads the top portion but it also helps build starting strength. If you wanted to use chains simply to overload lockout, eg as assistance for equipped bench, you would use more chains.

Take bench press with chains example. My sticking point is about 2 inches from the chest. Say you have 20kg of chains set up so that half of the chains are on the ground at lockout and the chain is almost completely on the ground when the bar is at the lowest point in the ROM. You get 10kg loading at the top and 0kg loading at the bottom. You might use 100kg of straight weight and 20kg of chain, so the weight is 100kg at the bottom and 110kg at the top. At your sticking point, you might have about 4kg loading. You need to build more acceleration prior to that sticking point than you would have had you just done straight weight of say 102.5kg. But then you also have to continue accelerating because the weight continues to incrementally load to match your strength curve.

If you were benching more than 140kg you might want more chain loading, say 20-30kg. If you were benching less than 100kg, you would need lighter chain or the rate of weight increase would be too great to get the desired training effect for raw bench. It might not be worth it at all for lighter benching.

One big advantage of chains of course is that it doesn't really mess with the form of the lift at all and you continue to get all the training benefits of using stretch reflex out of the bottom.

By itself accommodating resistance is not a panacea, its just one strategy you can use in combination with straight lifts, paused lifts etc. Since using chains my sticking point is actually moving higher in the ROM, at least at sub-maximal weights, because I am now getting much more acceleration off my chest. I like them. I am totally for paused benches/squats bench too, as well as straight weight. I think all the strategies complement each other and they all have their uses.

 

[0ni]

With chains then, are we agreement that youre reprogramming the lift to a favourable force curve (one that spikes fast)? Like when youre doing reps youre making it flatter. With chains would people be in agreement that the optimal time to use them would be when your force curve is flat and bar speed is practically the same throughout the lift?

I would like to find some info on if reps increase RFD as well and to what extent

 

[wingman]

I like to pick things up and put them down.

 

[0ni]

Also: what is different about a jerk than a press from a dead stop that makes it superior for developing rate of force?

 

[Bazza20]

I like to pick things up and put them down.

Same.

 

[lkt004]

Also: what is different about a jerk than a press from a dead stop that makes it superior for developing rate of force?

A jerk is used for power development throughout the whole body, there is no press in the jerk, you are essentially jumping under the bar and beating it to the ground.

That sounds weird but you get the point.