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Protein = Kidney problems?

Nonsense, Shrek. Old triple-initials is just looking to stir shit.

"Everybody has opinions: I have them, you have them. And we are all told from the moment we open our eyes, that everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. Well, that’s horsepuckey, of course. We are not entitled to our opinions; we are entitled to our informed opinions. Without research, without background, without understanding, it’s nothing. It’s just bibble-babble. It’s like a fart in a wind tunnel, folks."
- Harlan Ellison​
Just another internet tough guy hiding behind a pseudonym with nothing constructive to say, just "no u!"

if pointing out your misinformation is called stirring shit then so be it
not sure why that quote is aimed at me?
you should take your own advice and research before you make claims such as "There is some evidence that more than 2.5g protein per kg bodyweight can lead to kidney problems"

feel free to search through my posts (all 36 of them!) and point out anything i've said which is wrong
its called constructive criticism

anyway, the topic starter has his question answered
so i will not post in this thread again
 
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The only thing I can see wrong with upg`s post is that it wasn`t very tactful.
You could have worded it a bit softer mate but all you guys calling him a troll and an internet heavy is just as bad as what you are accusing him of.
I`vs had pretty strong debates with 2 on here and even though we strongly disagreed with each other it never went to name calling and at the end of it all we agreed to disagree and still respect each other.
Grow up.
 
Interesting. Doesn't add much, though. He says,
"If you want to lose fat, more protein is crucial — at least a half-gram of protein per pound of body weight per day.

[...] fewer than 40 percent of your total daily calories from carbohydrates

[...] If you have a lot of fat to lose, and your goal is a dramatic change in your body composition, research shows you should have at least two-thirds of a gram of protein per pound per day [...] At worst, you should never consume more than 1.5 grams of carbs for every gram of protein.

For serious lifters and competitive strength athletes [...] just under a gram of protein per pound per day."

That translates to,
  • For beginners losing some fat and gaining muscle, 0.5g/lb, or 1.1g/kg BW
  • For beginners losing lots of fat and gaining muscle, 0.67g/lb, or 1.5g protein/kg BW, and not more than 1.5g carb/kg BW
  • For advanced athletes, 1g/lb, or 2.2g protein/kg
Which is pretty much what the AIS told us above.
 
Putting it into ExRx.net's strength standards, things appear to be like this:-

Untrained - Expected level of strength in a healthy individual who has not trained on the exercise before but can performit correctly. This represents the minimum level of strength required to maintain a reasonable quality of life in a sedentary individual. Achieved with 0.75g protein / kg bodyweight

Novice - A person training regularly for a period of 3-9 months. This strength level supports the demands of vigorous recreational activities. Achieved with 1g/kg, and a calorie surplus when gaining muscle, and low carbs when losing fat.

Intermediate- A person who has engaged in regular training for up to two years. The intermediate level indicates some degree of specialization in the exercises and a high level of performance at the recreational level. Achieved with 1.5-2.0g/kg, and a calorie surplus when gaining muscle, and low carbs when losing fat.

Advanced - An individual with multi-year training experience with definite goals in the higher levels of competitive athletics. Specialist diet

Elite - Refers specifically to athletes competing in strength sports. Less than 1% of the weight training population will attain this level. Specialist diet

The "specialist diet" refers to things like cutting and bulking phases, supplements, and so on. Exactly which depends on the sport. But few of us discussing things on forums will be beyond intermediate...
 
For serious lifters and competitive strength athletes [...] just under a gram of protein per pound per day."
its not suggesting that at all.

you need to read the article again paying closer attention to the last couple of charts where the authors recommendation of protein intake for certain levels of training is shown.
 
Putting it into ExRx.net's strength standards, things appear to be like this:-

Untrained - Expected level of strength in a healthy individual who has not trained on the exercise before but can performit correctly. This represents the minimum level of strength required to maintain a reasonable quality of life in a sedentary individual. Achieved with 0.75g protein / kg bodyweight

Novice - A person training regularly for a period of 3-9 months. This strength level supports the demands of vigorous recreational activities. Achieved with 1g/kg, and a calorie surplus when gaining muscle, and low carbs when losing fat.

Intermediate- A person who has engaged in regular training for up to two years. The intermediate level indicates some degree of specialization in the exercises and a high level of performance at the recreational level.Achieved with 1.5-2.0g/kg, and a calorie surplus when gaining muscle, and low carbs when losing fat.

Advanced - An individual with multi-year training experience with definite goals in the higher levels of competitive athletics. Specialist diet

Elite - Refers specifically to athletes competing in strength sports. Less than 1% of the weight training population will attain this level. Specialist diet

The "specialist diet" refers to things like cutting and bulking phases, supplements, and so on. Exactly which depends on the sport. But few of us discussing things on forums will be beyond intermediate...


are the italics your additions to the quote? i cant see them on the website


edit: i can see that they are, whats your point in this post?
 
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Protein Prejudice
By Dr. John M Berardi, Ph.D



I was in the lab the other day, playing researcher, when an aggressive and self-assured undergraduate student burst in through an unlocked door.

"Excuse me. Is there anyone around that I can speak to about protein?"

Apparently, since the sign outside our door reads "University of Western Ontario, Exercise Nutrition Laboratory," it's clear to everyone that there's an exercise and nutrition help desk inside that's dedicated to dropping everything at a moment's notice to answer any and all questions.

"I guess that's me," I sheepishly replied, afraid of what was about to come. "What is it about protein that you want to know?"

"My question is this: Why do all the magazines say that athletes need more protein when it's clear that they don't."

Deep breath…

Rather than debating my precocious friend, I just scratched out "T-mag.com" on a piece of scrap paper and sent him on his merry way. You see, I've long ago given up on the notion that I can somehow change the world's false dietary perceptions one person at a time. When placed in such a position, I try not to launch into a full-blown nutritional diatribe highlighting the fact that arrogance and ignorance should not be combined in the same meal. Or is that protein and carbs? I can never remember.

Instead, I usually try to remind myself that each of us, somewhere along the way, has asked the most famous protein question: "How much protein do athletes need?" And eventually, despite our original protein prejudice, we usually learn that athletes probably should eat more protein than their sedentary counterparts.

Unfortunately though, many simply assume that since Dr Lemon said so, they should just go ahead and consume between 1.6-2.0 grams of protein per kg of body mass and be done with it. After fixing their dietary protein intake in this manner, these individuals usually forget all about protein intake. Well, more correctly, they usually forget about protein intake until, that is, it's time to chastise those uninformed simpletons who eat less protein or it's time to taunt those amino acid wastrels who eat more. But can fixing our dietary protein intake be as simple as so many presume?

Personally, I think not. And that's what this article's all about — figuring out the difference between protein need and optimal protein intake. After all, in this article I'm going to convince you that athletes might actually need less protein than sedentary individuals. That's right, I said less! In addition, I'll persuade you that even if athletes do actually need less protein than sedentary individuals, they should still eat more protein — a lot more.

Need Vs. Optimization

Let's take a moment to examine the most common protein question discussed above — How much protein does an athlete need?

When someone asks this question they're usually trying to figure out how much protein the athlete in question should eat to optimize body composition and performance. But the question, "How much protein does an athlete need?" is a very different one from "How much protein should an athlete consume to improve body composition and athletic performance?" So it's important to distinguish between what someone needs and what's optimal.

In the research world, the word need is in no way associated with optimization. Instead it's defined as the minimum amount necessary in order to prevent deficiency. Therefore, in asking how much protein an athlete needs, you're asking the question "What's the minimum amount of protein an athlete can get away with to prevent wasting and eventual death?"

Since most athletes have access to and usually consume enough protein to stave off death, the common protein question about how much protein an athlete needs is a bad one. This question doesn't address the issue of real importance, the one that addresses what an athlete should consume to improve performance and body composition?

Do Athletes Need More Protein?

While it's obvious that the protein need question is an academic one, I want to address it here because the answer may shock you.

Before we talk about specific numbers, I need to give you a little background on how to measure protein needs. Measuring protein needs in different populations is usually accomplished by the nitrogen balance technique. This technique involves measuring the amount of nitrogen ingested (in protein sources), as well as measuring or estimating the amount of nitrogen excreted in the urine, sweat, and feces.

If the amount of nitrogen going into the body is greater than the amount of nitrogen leaving the body, it's said that the person is in positive nitrogen status. It's then assumed that the surplus protein retained in the body has been used to build up body tissues.

If the amount of nitrogen coming in is equivalent to the nitrogen going out, it's said that the person is in nitrogen balance. It's then assumed that the person is eating just enough protein to prevent deficiency but not enough to build additional tissue.

If the amount of nitrogen going into the body is less than the amount of nitrogen leaving the body, it's said that the person is in negative nitrogen status. It's then assumed that the person is protein deficient and in time they will begin to break down muscle tissue and, eventually, organ mass to provide for their basic amino-acid needs.

It's therefore important to recognize that most protein-need studies look for the protein intakes at which people are in nitrogen balance, or just enough to prevent them from being deficient.

From these nitrogen-balance experiments, it's been recommended that untrained individuals consume 0.8g of protein per kg of body mass to meet their need. Again, this is the amount of protein needed to keep them in balance while staving off the dreaded negative protein status (which can lead to protein malnutrition, muscle and organ wasting, and eventual death).

With respect to athletic needs, the work of Lemon, Tarnopolsky and colleagues has given some indication that athletes do require more protein (Lemon et al 1981, Tarnopolsky et al 1988, Tarmonpolsky et al 1992, Lemon et al 1997). This classic research indicates that during intensive training, strength and endurance athletes may need somewhere between 1.4 - 2.0 g of protein per kg of body mass to maintain nitrogen balance.

But what about all the athletes and weightlifters out there that consume fewer protein grams than the recommended 1.4 - 2.0 g of protein per kg of body mass? If they really needed those 1.4 - 2.0g/kg, wouldn't they be wasting away and dying? Since they're not, they must not need all that protein. What's the deal?

As Rennie and colleagues have pointed out, there are several problems when trying to apply the Lemon and Tarnoposky data to habitual exercisers. First, the studies by Lemon and Tarnopolsky were done on athletes undergoing new training programs. While they were recreationally active before the study began, the training stimulus (strength training in some studies, endurance training in others) was novel, most likely causing a short-term increase in protein need, an increase that would not persist in the long-term (Rennie et al 1999, 2000). In other words, Rennie argues that while a new exercise program (whether strength or endurance exercise) may increase protein need acutely, chronic exercise probably doesn't increase protein need at all.

Now before you start hatin' on Rennie, it's important to understand that this guy is a protein research legend. Type his name into Medline and you'll get a couple hundred protein-related research publications. Beyond his excellent reputation, his ideas do have both theoretical and research support. Specifically, the research of Butterfield and Calloway suggests that athletes may actually need less protein due to an increase in protein efficiency that may accompany chronic training (Butterfield and Calloway 1984). What this means is that athletes may actually get more efficient in their protein use (i.e. increased anabolic efficiency) and therefore may need less protein than the 0.8g/kg required for sedentary individuals!

Is this Rennie guy crazy? Probably not! Then why do his comments fly in the face of what athletes and weightlifters know; namely that a higher-protein diet helps pack on muscle mass and helps promote a favorable body composition? Well, actually, they don't! If you think so, you haven't taken a lesson from our earlier discussion. Namely, you're still confusing need with optimization.

An athlete may need less protein to stay alive but he/she should consume more protein to optimize performance and body composition. Therefore, when I'm asked how much protein an athlete needs, my best response is that it doesn't matter! Asking "How much protein does an athlete need?" is much like asking the question "How much does a student need to study for an exam?" Since a student only needs to pass their exam to remain a student, the proper answer would be "however much it takes to score a 60%." However, very few students want to earn only a 60%. Therefore the best question would be "How much does a student need to study to get an A on their exam?"

Optimization of Protein Intake

In the above section, I've indicated that athletes may actually need fewer protein grams per day than the typical sedentary dose of 0.8g/kg. Actually, the Butterfield study suggests an exact number: 0.65g/kg.

In calculating the exact amount of protein they might recommend to maintain nitrogen balance, a 200lb athlete who trains consistently would find that they only need a measly 59g of protein to prevent nitrogen losses and protein malnutrition.

So, for those of you who staunchly believe that you're only required to eat enough protein to meet your needs,go right ahead and reduce your protein intake from 2.0g/kg to 0.65g/kg. In the meantime, I'll be encouraging everyone else to actually increase his or her protein intake beyond the current 2.0g/kg recommendation.

If this recommendation seems excessive, it's because you have a narrow view of how protein fits into one's dietary strategy. You're looking at protein in the same narrow way that people used to look at vitamin C; essential at a specific dose but conferring no additional benefits with a higher intake.
With vitamin C, we all know it's important to consume enough of it (at least 10mg/day) to prevent scurvy. However, it's also commonly known there are a host of health benefits associated with much higher doses (200mg/day or more) including a reduced risk of cancer, increased HDL cholesterol, reduced risk of coronary artery disease, and a reduced duration of cold episodes and severity of symptoms.

Like vitamin C, instead of thinking of protein as a macronutrient that provides no benefit beyond preventing protein deficiency, we need to recognize the benefits of eating protein (at any dose).

Increased Thermic Effect of Feeding — While all macronutrients require metabolic processing for digestion, absorption, and storage or oxidation, the thermic effect of protein is roughly double that of carbohydrates and fat. Therefore, eating protein is actually thermogenic and can lead to a higher metabolic rate. This means greater fat loss when dieting and less fat gain during overfeeding.

Increased Glucagon — Protein consumption increases plasma concentrations of the hormone glucagon. Glucagon is responsible for antagonizing the effects of insulin in adipose tissue, leading to greater fat mobilization. In addition, glucagon also decreases the amounts and activities of the enzymes responsible for making and storing fat in adipose and liver cells. Again, this leads to greater fat loss during dieting and less fat gain during overfeeding.

Increased IGF-1 — Protein and amino-acid supplementation has been shown to increase the IGF-1 response to both exercise and feeding. Since IGF-1 is an anabolic hormone that's related to muscle growth, another advantage associated with consuming more protein is more muscle growth when overfeeding and/or muscle sparing when dieting.

Reduction in Cardiovascular Risk — Several studies have shown that increasing the percentage of protein in the diet (from 11% to 23%) while decreasing the percentage of carbohydrate (from 63% to 48%) lowers LDL cholesterol and triglyceride concentrations with concomitant increases in HDL cholesterol concentrations.

Improved Weight-Loss Profile — Brand spankin' new research by Layman and colleagues has demonstrated that reducing the carbohydrate ratio from 3.5 - 1 to 1.4 - 1 increases body fat loss, spares muscle mass, reduces triglyceride concentrations, improves satiety, and improves blood glucose management (Layman et al 2003 — If you're at all interested in protein intake, you've gotta go read the January and February issues of the Journal of Nutrition. Layman has three interesting articles in the two journals).

Increased Protein Turnover — As I've discussed before in my article Precision Nutrition, all tissues of the body, including muscle, go through a regular program of turnover. Since the balance between protein breakdown and protein synthesis governs muscle protein turnover, you need to increase your protein turnover rates in order to best improve your muscle quality. A high protein diet does just this. By increasing both protein synthesis and protein breakdown, a high protein diet helps you get rid of the old muscle more quickly and build up new, more functional muscle to take its place.

Increased Nitrogen Status — Earlier I indicated that a positive nitrogen status means that more protein is entering the body than is leaving the body. High protein diets cause a strong positive protein status and when this increased protein availability is coupled with an exercise program that increases the body's anabolic efficiency, the growth process may be accelerated.

Increased Provision of Auxiliary Nutrients — Although the benefits mentioned above have related specifically to protein and amino acids, it's important to recognize that we don't just eat protein and amino acids — we eat food. Therefore, high protein diets often provide auxiliary nutrients that could enhance performance and/or muscle growth. These nutrients include creatine, branched chain amino acids, conjugated linoleic acids, and/or additional nutrients that are important but remain to be discovered. This illustrates the need to get most of your protein from food, rather than supplements alone.

Looking over this list of benefits, isn't it clear that getting lots of protein would be advantageous to anyone's training goals? Since a high protein diet can lead to a better health profile, an increased metabolism, improved body composition, and an improved training response, why would anyone ever try to limit their protein intake to the bare minimum necessary to stave off malnutrition?

It seems to me that whether someone's on a hypoenergetic diet or a hyperenergetic diet, the one macronutrient they would want to be sure to overeat would be protein. Instead, their protein prejudice often leads most trainees to look for what they consider the bare minimum of protein, and then overeat carbohydrates and fats instead. That's a big performance and body composition mistake.

I have yet to meet a healthy man or woman that couldn't use more protein in his or her diet. It's high time we drop our prejudiced attitude toward protein and start giving it the respect it deserves.

Now get outta my lab — I've got work to do and you've gotta go eat some protein.

To be honest though you could argue about protein requirements until the cows come home. i know how much i'll be consuming though
 
Yes, the italicised bits are mine. As I said, I'm trying to take all the different info and put it together in a clear and simple form. Between the science and the broscience, there's a bit too much information for most of us.

you need to read the article again paying closer attention to the last couple of charts where the authors recommendation of protein intake for certain levels of training is shown.
Actually, you need to read the article. What I wrote,

"For serious lifters and competitive strength athletes [...] just under a gram of protein per pound per day."​

was a quote from the article. Quotes are often indicated by indentation and/or different font/colour. The full quote,

"For serious lifters and competitive strength athletes, we have to bump up the protein.

"The International Society of Sports Nutrition, in a 2007 position statement, concluded that bodybuilders and strength/power athletes require just under a gram of protein per pound per day. "​

I omitted only his source.

His first chart isn't about protein requirements specifically, but branched chain amino acids (the building blocks of proteins). "T-Nation adults" are given the highest recommended dose, at 240.2mg/kg daily. That is, less than a quarter of a gram per kilogram of bodyweight, or about one-eighth the total protein consumption recommended for "serious lifters and competitive strength athletes".

How did he reach those estimates?

"More sophisticated estimates of protein requirements suggest that you can break it down in terms of individual essential amino acids ("essential" means your body can't make them from other amino acids in your diet). I've done that in the following chart, adding 40 percent to the totals for regular folks to estimate how much T-Nation readers need to reach their goal of improved body composition."

What's his basis for adding 40%? Unlike everything he's said before then, he gives no scientific reference, nor does he mention personal experience, or experience with people's counselled. In other words, he just said, "seems about right" - he made it up.

Anyway, it's only a small part of all protein requirements, and really he's just saying you should eat a variety of foods. Yep, we know.

His highest recommended total protein comes in here,

"High intensity or pre-competition

"You're in serious training, possibly preparing for a bodybuilding contest or some other competition that requires peak performance.

You need 1.36 grams of protein per pound of body weight per day."​
1.36g/lb is 3g/kg. Again, he doesn't give us a source for this - it seems this is his arbitrary extra 40% he mentioned earlier. 2g, 3g, a big difference? Well, it'll make a difference in your grocery or protein powder bill - 1g/kg will be 60-120g protein for most people, which is a big chicken breast daily, or several scoops of protein powder.

Well, this also goes against what the AIS says. They say 2g/kg is the most anyone should bother with. Who to believe? Well, he doesn't explain his 40% extra, so I'd say that's a strike against him. The AIS has produced a heap of gold medal winners, so I'd say that's a tick in their favour. Could there be anything else behind his ideas?

Well, he's writing on T-Nation, and says,
"A serving of Metabolic Drive, for example, contains 20 grams of protein, about 9 of which are essential amino acids."

Metabolic Drive? What's that? Why, that's a product sold at T-Nation. What an amazing coincidence. An article on a commercial website recommends under the name of someone with a degree that you consume lots of stuff which they just happen to sell.

And if you google around for this Chris Lockwood, you find he's the Muscle & Fitness editor, shilling supplements in 2005. He describes himself as being "in charge of and revitalizing the ABB/Science Foods sports nutrition brands."

The editor of a magazine which relies on advertising from supplements manufacturers, and who himself promotes supplements, tell us that we need more supplements?

Hmmm. So, we've got
  • one guy who doesn't describe all his sources and reasoning, and who has a financial interest in pumping up how much supplements we consume, who says intermediates/advanced need 3g/kg;
  • and then we have an institute who describe all their sources, and who have no interest in downplaying how much we need to consume, who say intermediates/advanced need 2g/kg

Weighing it up, I reckon I'll go with the AIS on this one.

2g protein per kilogram of bodyweight is the most anyone up to intermediate level needs to gain lean mass.

But hey, if the guys who helped produce a shitload of gold medals ain't good enough for you, I don't know what is. Go ahead, write and tell them they're idiots.
 
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To be honest though you could argue about protein requirements until the cows come home. i know how much i'll be consuming though
Yeah, people are like that.

The other day I was talking to a woman, not obese or overweight, just unfit, she said, "I want to lose weight." I said, "don't worry about weight, worry about the sort of figure you want, should it be more muscle, less fat or what." She said, "I want to weigh less."

I said, "Look, your weight is not that important. Look." I showed her these two pictures:
16r9vdeU7Zcr5wti3MNoEkUjnJ6VaC0921.jpeg


Less than 1kg of difference in weight, but a big difference in appearance. She said, "Okay, I see what you mean, but I still want to lose weight."

I asked her if the second was the sort of body she was after. "Yes," she replied.
"Then you'll have to do some heavy weights."
"But I don't want to bulk up."
"This woman did heavy weights, you can look at her workout journal. She didn't bulk up."
"Yeah I see what you mean, but I don't want to bulk up."

People are very attached to their misconceptions about diet and exercise. So no, I don't expect you to change your behaviour. I'll bet the butcher and health food shop owners are your bestest buddies :D
 
i started digging up some further articles on high protein diets but considered whats the point? he has his AIS source which he believes in and i have my sources which i believe in. im not trying to prove AIS wrong that would be stupid, im just trying to post some alternative articles to spark some debate, believe me you arent the first person to poke holes in a T-nation article :D. My beliefs are based off real life evidence that i have experienced and witnessed, i started out taking around 2 grams of protein per kg and eating an excess of calories (around 5-700 over maintenance). i made some changes to my physique but my strength plateaued quite quickly and for months and months i was stuck with the pissweak 1rm lifts @ 81kg's of:

Bench: 70kg
Military: 47.5kg
Deadlift: 110kg
Powerclean: 60kg
Squat: 75kg

3 months ago after a layoff of around 3-4 months i started over and doubled my protein intake to 3.5-4 grams per kg and continued eating at an excess of around 4-500 calories (last time i felt i gained too much fat). this time there was no plateau, im now leaner and stronger, my current 1rm lifts @ 77.5kg's are:

Bench: 85kg
Military: 55kg
Deadlift: 160kg
Powerclean: 75kg
Squat: 100kg

i hit a new PB on at least one of these lifts on a weekly basis, i still have long way to go to reach my goals and lift big numbers but im pretty confident to say that that my high protein diet has played a big role in this improvement and i cant see why i would change from here. misconceptions about dieting and fitness? i dont have any mate, i practice what i preach.

p.s im not sure who runs the local health food store but the butchers a pretty top bloke
 
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