Lower weights, more reps?

[mondo]

ok my training is this:

all exercises are 3 sets of 12 reps.

Day One (performed Mon and Thur)
Chest:
DB Incline Bench Press
Barbell Bench Press
DB Decline Press

Legs:
Barbell ATG Squats
Leg Extensions
Leg Curls
Calve Raises

Biceps:
Barbell Curls
Concentration Curls
Overhead Cable Curls


Dat Two (done Tue and Fri)
Back:
Chin Ups till failure
Barbell Rows (Over hand Grip) (swapped weekly wit lat PD Back)
Barbell Rows (Under hand Grip) (swapped weekly wit lat PD front)

SHoulders:
Smith machine SHoulder Press
DB Arnold SHoulder PRess
Barbell Shoulder press (behind head)

Triceps:
Rope Tri Pulldown
Lying Over head tri extensions
Straight arm tri pulldown


I rest on Wed, Sat and Sunday, and do abs everyday acept these days.

for abs i do:
Medicine Ball Twists
Stabilisers
DB Oblique Crunches

does this help at all?

 

[Meshwork]

dude i dont understand u telling me to train less??? wont that just make me go fat?? and anaerobic?? i am not doing any aerobic exercise i havent done any form of cardio since march cause i was told to stop it as that may be wat was holding me bak, but turnsa out it wasnt. and i do train hard but i need a spotter but no damn person in this world takes me seriously enough to want to help me out in the gym or train with me, it p*sses me off big time, i need help but no one will help me out!!!!

Mondo

I am not a dude. I've been going out of my way to help you but you obviously don't understand what I've clearly written.

I will also say this about your previous comment. Please look up the difference between aerobic and anaerobic in the Net. And yes, please take the time to carefully read what I've already detailed in my former posts, ie to train less, but harder, lifting more resistance whilst maintaining strict form. Do it progressively, in the rep range that I mentioned. Is it really that difficult for you to comprehend?

I will not repeat myself over and over again, and I know this would happen here.

Farewell

Mesh

 

[Dan]

ok my training is this:

all exercises are 3 sets of 12 reps.

Day One (performed Mon and Thur)
Chest:
DB Incline Bench Press
Barbell Bench Press
DB Decline Press

Legs:
Barbell ATG Squats
Leg Extensions
Leg Curls
Calve Raises

Biceps:
Barbell Curls
Concentration Curls
Overhead Cable Curls


Dat Two (done Tue and Fri)
Back:
Chin Ups till failure
Barbell Rows (Over hand Grip) (swapped weekly wit lat PD Back)
Barbell Rows (Under hand Grip) (swapped weekly wit lat PD front)

SHoulders:
Smith machine SHoulder Press
DB Arnold SHoulder PRess
Barbell Shoulder press (behind head)

Triceps:
Rope Tri Pulldown
Lying Over head tri extensions
Straight arm tri pulldown


I rest on Wed, Sat and Sunday, and do abs everyday acept these days.

for abs i do:
Medicine Ball Twists
Stabilisers
DB Oblique Crunches

does this help at all?

Some observations on your current program. You state that you do 3 sets per exercise for 12 reps. You are doing a total of 9 sets per body part for 108 reps, done twice per week this is 18 sets per body part every week for 216 reps.

First point - you do the same volume for biceps & triceps that you do for back & chest. Bi's & Tri's are small muscle groups that get used extensively when you train back, chest etc. You are doing far too much volume for arms IMO.

Second point - the way you are training now is not successful for you by your own admission. Have you always done this amount of volume? Everybody is different, & I know natural trainers that do more volume than you for good results. I know far more natural trainers however that would not be able to cope with the amount of volume you are doing, & get far better results reducing the volume (sounds a little like what Mesh was saying don't you think?)

Third point - How long have you been using the 12 reps range? Have you ever tried to vary it? In combination with my second point about volume, programs like HST have been very successful for some people, ie varying the rep range from 15/10/5 to accomodate progressive load. HST also advocated a much lower volume, as little as 6 sets per week even.

I'm not saying that you must do HST, I'm trying to get you to rethink some of what you are doing, because put simply, it is not working for you. Rippetoes Starting Strength program works in the 5 rep range for compounds, 9 sets total per week, with only 2 sets for arms to be thrown in as accessory work if you must in the 8 rep range. The point I'm trying to make is - if something is not working, find out what does work.

With regard to exercise selection, you could consider weighted dips instead of decline bench, stiff leg deadlifts instead of leg curls, if you are truly atg squatting with intensity, I don't see why you'd need to do leg extensions afterwards or what they could possibly do for you that squats will not, consider deadlifts for back, standing military press for shoulders, I would not do barbell behind the head shoulder press for all the camels in Arabia - shoulder health is important to me, & since the current volume level is not producing results, why not simplify your program, get rid of alot of the stuff you are doubling & tripling up on?

What do you think?

 

[mondo]

wat do i think? honestly, its all stuff i hav tried before i done rippetoes before, i hav tried pyrmising, i hav not always done the 12 rep range either obviously. wat should i do i dunno anymore???? should i jus train 1 exercise per body part???

 

[Dan]

In your position, I would go back to basics. I am not telling you to do this program (although you could certainly do worse IMO) but this is an example template, based on compound exercises that performed with good form & the right intensity, combined with the right diet & recovery, I can't see how you could go too far wrong.

Full body, 3 x week training.

Workout 1:
Squats (3x8) - as low as you can go without losing form.
Military Press (3x8) - Standing
Pendlay Rows (3x8) - Back almost 180 degrees, strict form.
Dips (3x8) - Weighted if possible on parallel bars.

Close Grip Bench (2x8)
Incline DB Curls (2x8)
Roman Chair Sit Ups - Weighted if required (1x20)

Workout 2:
Bench (3x8) - Incline, flat, barbell or dumbell, choose 1 & stick to it.
Deadlift (3x8) - Trap Bar or Barbell, form is what matters.
Pull Ups (3x8) - Weighted if needed, lat pull down if you have to.
Farmers Walk - Will help with grip, forearms, traps, not much it wont hit. Pick a distance to walk with dumbbells that will take a minimum of 30 seconds, & up to 60 seconds so that grip endurance is also tested.

Skullcrushers (2x8)
BB Curls (2x8)
Hyper Extensions - Weighted if required (1x20)

A note on the accessory work - your biceps & triceps are getting worked with the meat of the program, so if you must work them in isolation, they will not need the same amount of volume, hence 2 sets of 8. You could also add Standing Calf raises alternated with Seated Calf Raises if you want. Rep ranges for calfs are open to debate, possibly alternate 10 reps with 20 reps.

The reduced volume from what you have been doing should see an increase in intensity as fatigue is reduced, & an increased ability for the body to recover between sessions. Recovery is where size is built.

Like Mesh has already said, form is important. I am not so much into set tempos for lifting, but at the end of the day, a controlled negative is easy to achieve, and if you are cheating / jerking / bouncing / using muscle groups other than the target muscle to complete a rep, it's time to leave the ego at the door & lower the weight, or stop the set.

If you are going to come back to me here & say "I have already tried that, it didn't work" then all I can say to you is that you didn't try it for long enough or you strayed from the game plan. Give a routine like this a minimum of a solid 3 months, & you will see noticable improvements. If not, it indicates you have altered one of other previously mentioned factors like diet / form / recovery / intensity / missed training sessions etc.

The way to build muscle is simple, but it won't happen overnight.

Good luck.

 

[mondo]

that training sounds good and is diff to wat i hav done in past. i might give it a shot. i like it.

 

[Dan]

Keep us updated Mondo. Sometimes we are all guilty of overcomplicating things. When all else fails, go back to the basics and you really can't lose IMO. Again, good luck.

 

[mondo]

thanks i will try. how long u been training man? i need a trianing partner lol.

 

[Dan]

Training on & off for about 15 years, more seriously for 5 or so. You'd have to get your car serviced & pack lunch to train with me mate - I ain't in the city!

Seriously though Mondo, training partners are ideal when you have a good one who is as dedicated as you. I have always trained at home alone until this year when I got a training partner. But training alone has never worried me, you learn more about safety, self reliance, self motivation etc And I know every lift I make is all me, every gain I made was on my own steam etc. What I am trying to say is that if you find a good partner - good and well. If you don't, find the drive within.

 

[mondo]

yeh tru but i meed a spotter badly. i aint in the city either bro from regional victoria. no one in the regional areas seems to give a stuff or want to help me out tho.

also just lettin u no, i never EVER miss a training session.

 

[mondo]

jus wondering do i go till failure on the 3 day thing.

 

[mondo]

hows this sound?

full body 3 day split

Day 1:
Squats
Dips For Chest
Lat PD
Military Press

Close Grip Bench
Barbell Curls
Crunches Or Roman Chair Situps


Day 2:
Bench Press
Deadlift
Leg Extensions
Bent Over Rows

Dips For Tris
DB/Cable/Preacher Curls
Hyperextensions

Day 3: Repeat Day 1 Vary Day 2 week to week so one week begin Mon with Day 1 and second week begin monday with day 2. all 3 sets of 8 accept for tri and bi stuff tho foir tri dips i wanna go till complete failure cause my tris are fairly week, and it affects my bench majorly.

 

[nate]

regional vic here too , about 2hrs north east of melb

 

[mondo]

nate bro where abouts u from man?? that sounds same disancet as me. and in same direction

 

[Dan]

hows this sound?

full body 3 day split

Day 1:
Squats
Dips For Chest
Lat PD
Military Press

Close Grip Bench
Barbell Curls
Crunches Or Roman Chair Situps


Day 2:
Bench Press
Deadlift
Leg Extensions
Bent Over Rows

Dips For Tris
DB/Cable/Preacher Curls
Hyperextensions

Day 3: Repeat Day 1 Vary Day 2 week to week so one week begin Mon with Day 1 and second week begin monday with day 2. all 3 sets of 8 accept for tri and bi stuff tho foir tri dips i wanna go till complete failure cause my tris are fairly week, and it affects my bench majorly.

Program looks solid mate, but I am not a fan of leg extensions personally, if you want to include more leg work in that session I'd probably go the leg press myself. Leg Ext are an isolation exercise, leg press will give you more bang for your buck size wise.

On the subject of failure, it's a fine line. Some advocate stopping 1 rep short of failure, others consider loss of form failure, others go to absolute muscular failure. Whatever you decide, watch how it affects your results.

For example, if tricep weakness is a problem with bench, training to failure on your dips may further weaken your bench depending on your recovery ability. On the other hand, it may work well for you. All I am saying is try it for a few weeks, assess how it is working for you and make adjustments as necessary.

 

[mondo]

thanks dan bro well here gopes startin monday ima change over 2 the new prog i wrote and use leg press and extensions and vary week to week. exts give me better quad flare and defenition.
so seems cool then?

 

[Dan]

I've said what I think about Leg Extensions but it's is your choice mate - good luck Mondo & keep us posted!

Just remember, diet, intensity, recovery etc all the other factors are as important. Results won't happen overnight, but if you keep at it they will come.

 

[mondo]

but man jus one Question. Do I got till failure? and what do u guys class as failure?? i know it wen u cant get any more reps out with good form or even part of a rep and it hurts.

 

[Dan]

For me personally, I will train 1 rep short of failure, ie I will hit the last rep that I'm fairly sure I can manage without form going to an absolute dogs breakfast or actual muscular failure. But don't sell out if you use this method - push yourself to make sure this is the last good rep you can achieve. I will push myself to muscular failure periodically when I misjudge this, but not often. But that's just me - like I said before, opinions vary on the subject.

 

[mondo]

thanks heaps bro, lets see how it goes! ;D