help with squats

[pistachio]

hi all

well, i'm getting ready to get into some serious training after a rather lengthy patch of inconsistent training due to injury, lack of motivation and laziness. however, joining up on this forum has got my head in a positive mindset once again and motivated me to start taking this seriously once more and see just how far i can push it (BW 100kg?)

BUT before i can start pushing it hard, i have a few small issues to sort out, one of the biggest being my squat.

the problem: i am a relatively tall guy 6'1.5 with long legs which have been neglected somewhat over the years. (think average legs for a guy my height, but more muscular torso). this causes a few problems with my squat, the most noticable one being balance. i fold excessively when i squat, most likely due to a number of factors - limited flexibility, higher centre of gravity (i.e. pushing the torse forward helps balance) etc

i have had two leg workouts since starting training again. two sundays ago i did quarter squats (as going any deeper resulted in me dipping my arse or knees coming forward). i lifted modest weight (90kg) and was sore for 6 days. last sunday, i put plates under my heels, lifted even lighter (60kg), but did deep squats, or at least parallel. this felt quite good, although i've heard mixed things about using plates under your heels. however, this did enable me to squat a lot deeper without folding anywhere near as much. surprisingly tho, i did not get sore from this at all.

anyway, thats my background. would anyone have any advice on improving my squat technique so that somewhere down the track (i am going to do Fadi's 6 wk program first) i can start squatting heavy and beefing up my wheels? also, does anyone have recommendations on depth of squat and whether or not i should use plates under my heels?

cheers

 

[Kyle Aaron]

If you use just the bar, can you go ATG? Is your technique good then?

The theory is that if you start with low weight and good technique, as the weight goes up your technique will stay okay, too.

No shame in using just the bar. Add 2.5kg each time, at three workouts a week then in 12 weeks you'll have added 90kg and be squatting 110kg.

 

[NPR]

I would say that you have poor flexibility and a weak core, verry common.

Stretch your hamstrings, hip flexors and glutes before and after workouts that will help with the flexibility.

Also do some front squats as well as back squats, this will improve your core no end.

And plates under your heels are fine.

 

[pistachio]

I would say that you have poor flexibility and a weak core, verry common.

Stretch your hamstrings, hip flexors and glutes before and after workouts that will help with the flexibility.

Also do some front squats as well as back squats, this will improve your core no end.

And plates under your heels are fine.

my flexibility is definitely sh1thouse, i don't think the core is too weak tho

how do you stretch your hip flexors?

re the plates, is it better to do it without plates tho? ie is it something i should try to live without?

also kyle, i have tried ATG before (with light weight) but have found that my arse dips down which from what i have read is a BAD thing (means poor hip flexor flexibility i think..). so i stopped doing that. plus, isn't there a greater chance of injury with ATG squats? is there really any benefit in doing ATG as opposed to say parallel?

 

[katie]

Any chance of being able to take a video so that we can see your form?

 

[Kyle Aaron]

also kyle, i have tried ATG before (with light weight) but have found that my arse dips down which from what i have read is a BAD thing (means poor hip flexor flexibility i think..).

Yeah, poor hip flexibility, and/or weak and tight glutes and hams. Because they're tight they draw the pelvis back, and/or because they're weak the quads take over, and to get mechanical advantage they knock your pelvis back.

plus, isn't there a greater chance of injury with ATG squats? is there really any benefit in doing ATG as opposed to say parallel?

Apart from simply tripping over or something, and assuming no preexisting back, shoulder, knee etc conditions, the only real chance of injury is if the exercise is performed with poor form.

From parallel up, your quads are mainly used. From below parallel to parallel, your glutes and hams are mainly used. So if you stop short of parallel, you're only getting half the possible benefit of the exercise. It's like doing a bench press and only going from lockout to a foot above your chest - that won't work your chest much.

Have a look at this guy talk about how to deal with the very common problem of rounding your lower back and tucking your arse in when you squat. See if that helps. If not, check out this guy and his series of videos talking about how to improve the squat.

If you can manage to get good form on squats without weights at all, try that. From there, just use dumbells until you get to 20kg, then use just the bar. And so on. Form over weight, at least when you're beginning and not in a competition.

I find it helps if you don't look in the mirror. The mirror only gives you feedback about your front, and you really know about form on squats from looking at the side. Since you can't look sideways while doing it, better just to get the feel of it without any mirrors at all.

 

[lazy]

Arnold Schwarzenegger had the same problem quote from the book "Allowing your head to lean forward puts additional stress on your lower back and less on the thights, where you really want it. Bodybuilders with long legs tend to have this problem more than those with short legs"

"whenever I do Heavy Squats I am forced to bend forward quite far, bringing my lower back very strongly into this exercise"


Its not the end of the world, include half squats and front squats into your workout.

 

[Josh_GTiR]

What is the usual reason you would get pain in the groin region? Not stretching enough?

 

[pistachio]

Thanks for the feedback everyone

Katie: Nah, no chance, i don't have a video camera (or know how to post a video for that matter...)

Kyle: I checked out that first vid, i can't even do the goblin squat! (i think that is what he called it?). i cannot keep the weight on my heels and go all the way down, i fall backwards. i think my torso may be too short and heavy. i tried this for about 20 minutes, kept falling over. i'm going to try to do some BW ATG squats tonight, but to be honest, i don't think i will actually be ab able to do them without either falling backwards, or my knees coming a foot past my toes (and consequently having the weight on my toes)

Lazy: I am hopiing that i wont have to simply settle with quarter squats, but the reality of the matter may be that i have to. This is pretty much the point of this thread, to establish if there is anything i can do to achieve ATG squats, or at least parallel without folding excessively or shifting my weight forward

Josh: I'm actually not sure where you are coming from, i didn't mention groin pain?

 

[Josh_GTiR]

Sorry mate, I am taking over your thread. I had some groin pain last night and thought I would ask in here instead of starting another thread.

I think PTC has said that Overhead and Front Squats help his clients that have the fold over issues.

 

[NPR]

Thanks for the feedback everyone

Katie: Nah, no chance, i don't have a video camera (or know how to post a video for that matter...)

Kyle: I checked out that first vid, i can't even do the goblin squat! (i think that is what he called it?). i cannot keep the weight on my heels and go all the way down, i fall backwards. i think my torso may be too short and heavy. i tried this for about 20 minutes, kept falling over. i'm going to try to do some BW ATG squats tonight, but to be honest, i don't think i will actually be ab able to do them without either falling backwards, or my knees coming a foot past my toes (and consequently having the weight on my toes)

Lazy: I am hopiing that i wont have to simply settle with quarter squats, but the reality of the matter may be that i have to. This is pretty much the point of this thread, to establish if there is anything i can do to achieve ATG squats, or at least parallel without folding excessively or shifting my weight forward

Josh: I'm actually not sure where you are coming from, i didn't mention groin pain?

Ok I'm going to say this again because what you have said has confirmed what I already knew.

1. Work on your flexibility. Stretch your hamstrings, glutes, hip flexors and calves before and after each session. This will help in preventing you falling forward and staying on your heels.

2. Do some front squats and heavy deadlifts. Your core is weak, hence why you keep falling over.

Trust me on this I know my squats.

 

[PTC]

I just want to say that your height is not an issue. Here are the best squats at PTC and height of the lifter

Spiros 215kg @ 6'
Nick 205kg @ 6'1 1/2"
Chris 197.5kg @ 6'1"

Stick with overhead squats and front squats till you strengthen your core.

Also, go for a long walk with 100kg on your back, like a squat.

 

[PTC]

Jayden - 6' 4" and a 180kg squat @ 108kg, 8 weeks of "proper" training at PTC after fluff at commercial gym. Only 19yo. MONSTER.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

Monster indeed!

Great pic, there should be some kind of award for great sportsy pics

I have seen and heard a lot of this stuff, and spoken plenty myself. Too tall to squat, too short to deadlift, too old to lift heavy, too inflexible to do this or that exercise, women shouldn't do weights, but I just want to tone up, strength doesn't give you size, but what about my back, but Madonna's trainer said, but this guy said if you go below parallel, etc.

There are definitely some genuine medical concerns, but that's up to the medical guys, not self-diagnosing from the internet. But aside from that, what most of it comes down to is that these sorts of things are fcking hard work. I cannot honestly say I look forward to going to the gym. 50 or 100kg, let alone getting up to 150 or more - that's scary stuff.

It seems a bit crazy in some ways. Today I'll be looking down at a bar with two 20kg plates on either side. And I'll be picking it up and lifting it five times... then after a rest, doing that another five times, then another. At no Aussie workplace would you be allowed to do that, anything over 20kg you have to go and get help for, anything over 40kg goes on a trolley. So to be lifting 100kg...

Crazy.

But somehow I manage it, and lots of people manage heaps more.

Um... WTF was I talking about? "Keep at it!" I guess.

 

[pistachio]

1. Work on your flexibility. Stretch your hamstrings, glutes, hip flexors and calves before and after each session. This will help in preventing you falling forward and staying on your heels.

2. Do some front squats and heavy deadlifts. Your core is weak, hence why you keep falling over.

maybe you are right and my core is weaker than i think. i am starting Fadi's program today (the high rep one), so i will be squatting three times a week. i am thinking i will go over head squats twice and front squats once and see how i go. also, i will focus on my flexibility and stretching more.

cheers mate

 

[pistachio]

I just want to say that your height is not an issue

Stick with overhead squats and front squats till you strengthen your core.

Also, go for a long walk with 100kg on your back, like a squat.

yes i know, my point actually wasn't my height, it was my relatively long legs. however after re-reading my first post i realised that i didn't make this clear. for my height, i have long legs and a short torso. given i am already reasonably tall, this means i have longer than normal legs.

anyway, as mentioned in my above post, i am going to give the overhead squats and front squats a go and see if that helps over the next 6 weeks. mind you i will be going VERY light!

regarding the long walk, are you talking about with a backpack or something on?

 

[pistachio]

I have seen and heard a lot of this stuff, and spoken plenty myself. Too tall to squat, too short to deadlift, too old to lift heavy, too inflexible to do this or that exercise, women shouldn't do weights, but I just want to tone up, strength doesn't give you size, but what about my back, but Madonna's trainer said, but this guy said if you go below parallel, etc.

There are definitely some genuine medical concerns, but that's up to the medical guys, not self-diagnosing from the internet. But aside from that, what most of it comes down to is that these sorts of things are fcking hard work.

Kyle, while i am sure you are not meaning to cause offense here, the implication of your post is that i am coming up with excuses in order to avoid doing the 'fcking hard work'. and i do find this offensive. i am not coming up with excuses - if you read my first post you will see that i am in fact acknowledging a weakness of mine and trying to find a way to fix it so i CAN start doing the 'fcking ard work'.

i really want to be able to SAFETLY squat heavy as firstly i do not want out of proportion legs and i also want the whole body benefits that heavy squatting delivers.

 

[NPR]

I'm over 6"1' with long legs and a short torso too, squatting is my forte. Dont even think about using it as a cop out.

Core strength and flexibility, end of story.

 

[PTC]

Not a back pack, load a bar like your about to squat but instead go for a walk with it on your back.

I'm actually having a Yoke made up for PTC, like the one used in the Worlds Strongest Man comp.

This movement will seriously develop total body strength.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

Kyle, while i am sure you are not meaning to cause offense here, the implication of your post is that i am coming up with excuses in order to avoid doing the 'fcking hard work'.

Not at all, mate. What I was teasingly trying to say is that everyone has something that makes it hard for them. The supposedly "average" person who's built perfectly for all the basic lifts is actually really rare.