[Article] Fadi’s smashing the myth of muscle gain/fat loss

[Kyle Aaron]

Fadi can answer best what he meant. But what he said did not include "only for those who've trained for a while." And indeed, when I described my experience as a (new) newbie, he replied,

I still say not at the same time kyle. There may have been occasions when you were gaining muscles whilst at other times losing fat. In other words you lost fat and maintained muscle; then built muscles and added less fat in propotion to it.

I think it's worth distinguishing between beginners and intermediates and advanced people. Their experiences, the results they can get, the sorts of training and diets that work for them, these are very different.

If we don't distinguish between them, then a newbie comes along, reads our advice, and ends up thinking they can't lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, and should do a triple split and have a stack of supplements and 13,500 kcal daily. And then they say, "wooah!" and give up before they've started.

That's very interesting what Markos wrote, that for very dedicated and well-coached people it's possible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. I didn't know that, just know about beginners. I think there'll be no end to learning about this stuff

 

[Fadi]

Ok, I’m willing to go along with the: “yes it’s possible for a newbie or a very fat person.” However, I live right here on practical earth and not on some outer space planet. For all who’ve agreed that yes it’s quite possibly as described above; I say the probability of constant successes with such an aim is so slim, very selective, and not something that ought to be perused deliberately.

A more profitable and reliable approach would be to target one or the other with a precise program, then give it your ALL.

No hit and miss and certainly no maybes. Focus on one or the other rather than on both; this way you’d be guaranteed a successful outcome.
I’m very happy to say the least that this little contribution of mine has generated such a healthy discussion amongst friends. Well done and thank you all.

PS: Below you’ll find (if you’re interested) some deceitful marketing: some of the triggers that have prompted my article. At least Kyle was honest enough to qualify his answer; not so these so & so…

http://www.mombu.com/medicine/medicine/t-3-ways-to-burn-fat-and-build-muscle-at-the-same-time-fat-3159310.html

http://www.flatabsreport.com/lose-fat-build-muscle-article.php

http://www.natural-fatloss.com/how-to-lose-fat.htm


Fadi.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

It's as I've always said, Fadi: once you bring money into things, they can become dodgy. Not always, but it happens enough that we have to keep our eyes open.

To be fair, the second link you posted told the story of a guy who sat in his doctor's office with a bad cholesterol report; this implies he was an untrained beginner. He went on to do lots of cardio with not much effect, but resistance training did him some good. So he was a beginner, too.

The other advertisements will be aimed at beginners, too. Those advertisements don't bring in (say) someone who's done Stronglifts 5x5 for six months, is benching their bodyweight and squatting 1.5 times for reps, and reduced their waist from 110 to 88cm. They bring in the guy who looks down from his keyboard at his large belly pressing into the desk, and whose last exercise was getting off the couch to get a beer.

The advertising's aimed at newbies. So while it's deceitful, it's not completely so. They don't add the qualifier because they don't have to.

For all who’ve agreed that yes it’s quite possibly as described above; I say the probability of constant successes with such an aim is so slim, very selective, and not something that ought to be perused deliberately.

Well, here is the thing. Studies and anecdotes both tell us that just about whatever a beginner does, they get results, provided they stick with it.

For training, 14 exercises with 3x10 linear progression, 20 exercises with 3x15 periodisation, 3 exercises with 5x5 ascending, 6 exercises with 5x5 straight across - all these are going to increase muscle mass and make the person stronger.

As for diet, high carbs, low carbs, high or low protein or fat, again for the beginner it doesn't matter. If they're overfat and have a caloric deficit they'll lose fat while they grow muscle. If they're skinny and have a caloric surplus they'll grow muscle and a bit of fat regardless of the macronutrient breakdown. They're a newbie, they get newbie gains.

Some programmes and diets will get them better gains, definitely. But almost everything will get them some good results, provided they stick to it.

But after 3-9 months... then it becomes tricky. Then we need real experts like Fadi. When do we need them? Well, what does Fadi mention... "the probability of constant success." Hmmm. So maybe, try something for a couple of months, if it works keep going, if it stops working, time to change!

And in no case change based on some promising advertising

 

[ChrisOX]

a good read no need for further comment...

 

[PTC]

The problem with this entire thread Fadi is the first post. Far too many absolutes.

You should have clearly stated the type of lifter and experience, then everybody wouldve nodded in agreement and not bothered posting, but its gone on for 3 pages because you had EVERYONE in the same boat, and yes, beginners are here on earth as well, as are overweight lifters.

 

[fitnation]

That is interesting. Not everyone is going to have access to that kind of technology unfourtunately. It does give a strong indication that strength training and Vo2 or Cardio training in the right amount definetly correlate to improvements in ones physique even one's who have trained for a long time. If constant monitoring is feasible that is great. For most people even those with a lot of training under their belts measuring improvements can be down in different forms. Various fitness tests. It is tricky. I used to track all my training using a diary, now I go on how I feel and perform.

 

[pistachio]

i had a gym appraisal on monday, 4 weeks after i started training properly again. all i wanted done was bodyweight, a few girth measurements and skin folds.

over the course of four weeks, the following changes occured

- bodyweight went up by a couple of kilos
- arms went up by about 0.8cm
- waist went down by 2cm
- chest stayed the same
- skinfolds went down by about 4 overall

according to skin fold charts, by bodyfat before hand was around 15.5%. according to the new skin folds, its around 13.5%.

now before making any assumptions, i recognise that all of these measurements can vary depending on a number of factors. however, i did get them done by the same person, at the same time of day after the same pre workout meal (and i eat/drink pretty much the same stuff each day).

so i think that i did actually manage to gain muscle and lose fat over the last 4 wks. in fact if you take the 15.5% and 13.5% bf calculations as gospel, i gained about 4 kgs of muscle mass (i wish!). none the less, i think i did definitely manage to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time.

i put this down to the fact that i have been hardly training in the last 12 months. i took some photos sunday night completely cold, and i still don't look as good as i did 2.5 years ago (around 92-93 kgs with comparable, if not lower, bf).

i do agree with what has been said in many posts above however, that except in exceptional circumstances, the two processes are mutually exclusive

 

[Fadi]

It's great to hear that you've added some muscles and lost some fat at the same time Pistachio. It proves that Kyle was right and it can be done.


Fadi.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

It's great to hear that you've added some muscles and lost some fat at the same time Pistachio. It proves that Kyle was right and it can be done.

I said it can be done by untrained beginners who begin as overfat, eg a 25% bodyfat guy going down to 15% bodyfat, it tends to stall around there. It looks like pistachio is not a recently untrained beginner, nor was he overfat to begin with. So his experience does not prove what I said, it's something different.

What people can do when past the beginner stage (the first year or two of training) and when not overfat, I can't say. For example, it would be interesting to know if experienced overfat people can gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. The bulking/cutting cycles bodybuilders go through suggests they (sometimes) can. But it's not something I've experienced or studied.

 

[pistachio]

we have all heard of the phenomenon of muscle memory. i would have to put it down to that. i am not an untrained beginner, nor overfat. also, i don't exactly have a mesomorphic build, in fact i am very much an ectomorph. i've attached an old photo of me below, this was at the end of high school after doing weights at home for about a year.

so this throws yet another spanner in the works. when can you achieve both muscle gain and fat loss at the same time? in certain circumstances i believe you can, however i also believe that you cannot do it continually. maybe for a month or two, but that's about it.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

We cant see that image, pistachio, we have to be members of that forum to do so.

 

[pistachio]

We cant see that image, pistachio, we have to be members of that forum to do so.

well that is bizarre, i can't seem to post up any pics. it didn't look like a link to me, it just showed up as a normal picture

 

[Kyle Aaron]

Then you must be a member of that forum

You have to post your image somewhere public for us to be able to see it. Photobucket or somewhere like that.

 

[Yeeons]

just putting my 2cents worth which is prolly not worth much.

incoming energy and lifting with no incoming energy and cardo should equal muscle gain fat loss?

Controling incoming and outgoing energy should in theroy give you muscle gain and weight loss. The further you try and control the in and outs things begin to overlap.

From fadi's point of view is that focusing will give greater gains and also after a point is the only way to get more gains as the overlapping would effect the opposites negatively.

 

[Shame]

want to gain muscle
I want to lose fat
I don’t mind gaining muscle and fat; as long as the scale tips in favour of muscle.
I don’t care; I just want to gain weight
I don’t care; I just want to lose weight
I want to lose fat but not muscle
I want to lose fat but maintain as much muscle as possible
I want to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time.

Have you spotted the one I’m after and the one I’d be dealing with here? Yes, it’s the last one. That one is a classic.

It seems that some trainers/writers are totally devoid of manners. They not only give you the wrong advice, but they have the audacity to ask money for it! It’s not often that you’d see me going on the attack, but enough rubbish has been spewed buy some ill informed people to warrant a retaliatory action from me. I just hate it when people insult our intelligence then have the balls to demand some monetary benefit for it.

Your body is either in an anabolic (building/gaining) state, or catabolic (losing/breaking) state. Anabolic and catabolic can not coexist. So now that we know of the construction and demolition phases, what does that actually mean as far as fat and muscles are concerned?

It simply means that you can maintain muscles whilst at the same time losing fat; but you can not build muscles whilst losing fat. Remember, one is building and the other is breaking. Of course it's a lot easier to gain muscle and fat at the same time and vice versa. But our aim is to lose one whilst doing our best to hold on to the other (muscles).

I’ve noticed that some deceitful writers will promise you a loss of fat and a gain in muscle but fail miserably to include the 4 magic words: At the Same Time. In other words they don’t say that it can not be done at the same time. Some will go to great length explaining (or rather spinning their bull) in telling you that it can be achieved however, with the greatest of difficulties and that it’s always better to lose fat first then concentrate your program on building muscles afterward.

It would be much easier to tell it like it is and like it always will be; unless of course someone can prove to me that an anabolic hormone is not really anabolic but catabolic instead!


Fadi.

This depends on how you define time. If by "same time" you mean same minute or same hour; then yes, I agree. If by "same time" you mean same day, same week or same month; then no, I disagree.

p.s. haven't read all posts in this thread, apologies if the same has already been said.