If you want a 140kg clean, it's going to be a LOT easier to get there if you deadlift 280kg and front squat 190kg.
How can you say that when I have already pointed out to you by giving you examples, that for a lifter to achieve net power output, either the strength, the speed, or both factors combined have to increase? I'm not arguing with you nor am I disagreeing with you that gaining maximal strength is important. The message that I'm trying to convey to you is to please not violate the power formula. By that I mean to say that you seem to have an obsession with gaining strength at the expanse of speed. Would it not be better to take advantage of an exercise such as a pulling movement with 10% over one's 1RM instead of dead lifting a monstrous weight that is (according to you) stands at 160% of the lifter's maximum clean?but I disagree with your stance that increasing maximal strength doesn't increase maximal power.
Granted, no argument from me but, who's talking about strength or rather absolute strength here in exclusion of speed? I certainly am not! Power is a combination of both strength and speed; why take one of the elements away?Maximum strength is the backbone upon which all other strength qualities lie and this is covered in the Science and Practice of Strength Training...
Says who?! I'm here to tell you that I could power clean 140kg and clean and jerk 160, but there was no way in hell I would have been able to even move 280kg let alone deadlift the bugger off the ground! Does that make me weak? I don't really know, but I do know that lifting a monstrous weight off the floor was never my objective, so I never trained for it, and neither did the other 9 elite weightlifters I was training with at the time.If you want a 140kg clean, it's going to be a LOT easier to get there if you deadlift 280kg and front squat 190kg. Nobody will argue against this
Oni, are you being serious Sir? Why are you ignoring what I’m writing and sharing with you? You talk about the Chinese lifters achieving what is described as “adequate” strength level. Wow, let’s forget about “adequate” for a moment and look at real life situations here Oni: I have already demonstrated to you that even the strongest of the strong, that is World record strong, not simply adequate strong… (Shane Hamman 458kg squat/ deadlift 335kg) but could not manage a 242.5kg clean and jerk!The Chinese will do formal strength training in all their teenage years and have massive squats, deadlifts and push presses by the time they are 17 and start training the Olympic lifts formally. The focus of their training is strength until they are described as "adequate" and then the focus shifts to the Olympic lifts.
Agree, will get back to you in a sec Brad.how can lifting a heavier weight at speed NOT translate to strength and/or power... Of course it translates.
He agrees with you, only to go on saying that weightlifters don't do much heavy work apart from...Yeah, my sentiments exactly Bradski. As I was saying before, a lot of Olympic lifters don't do much heavy work at all apart from squats and could do with doing more strength work.
I needed that, thank you Sir.Don't worry Fadi, you're getting through to rest of us
Don't the chinese/dedicated-above-all-else olympic lifters usually complete their 10,000hrs of oly training by the time they reach 15-16-17 years old, which is why they get those results...?The Chinese will do formal strength training in all their teenage years and have massive squats, deadlifts and push presses by the time they are 17 and start training the Olympic lifts formally. The focus of their training is strength until they are described as "adequate" and then the focus shifts to the Olympic lifts. The result... 13 out of a possible 16 gold medals
Don't worry Fadi, you're getting through to rest of us
typical dumb american thinkingSo, here’s the deal: The snatch and the clean and jerk are not themselves capable of producing an increase in absolute strength over the long term, and are incapable of continuing to produce an increase in their own performance when trained in the absence of heavy squats, deadlifts, and upperbody strength exercises that constitute an absolute strength overload. In other words, programs that rely solely on the snatch, the clean & jerk, their derivative exercises, and front squats in the absence of regularly programmed increases in the basic strength movements do not produce international-level performances for athletes with less than elite genetics or the use of anabolic steroids. Furthermore, it is quite likely that an athlete cannot reach his absolute potential in the Olympic lifts until he approaches the same limit in training his absolute strength.
or,
If you want a 140kg clean, it's going to be a LOT easier to get there if you clean 140kg.
Cut out the middle man.
it's like this;
The shot put
person 1 : trains nothing for 2 years.
person 2 : trains Press once a week trains shot put once a week.
person 3 : trains shot put twice a week.
who will be better at shot put I would say person # 3 by a slight margin.
But, then again both methods would probably work.
Thank you for your observation Ryan. I have failed to mention that a weightlifter is very successful in driving up out of the hole only up to a certain weight. Meaning, after the weight on the bar begins to exceed a certain level, the weightlifter's attention would automatically shift to focusing on form... as one can lose form much easier with a heavier weight than not.Fadi, with all due respect, you pointed out that when oly lifters squat, they make it a priority to drive up out of the hole as fast as possible...yet you seem to be missing the fact that this same approach can be used in deadlifts, and very often is.
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