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Demoralised and looking for advice


Haz, I'm curious, how long have you been training for? At the end of 3 months of SS, what were your lifts like? What did you go on with after SS?

Nic.
 
well if you do SS you will probably do 5x5 which is a total of 25 reps compared to one set of 20 reps. it really doesnt matter that much when your starting out you will benefit from both
 
Nic said:
Haz, I'm curious, how long have you been training for? At the end of 3 months of SS, what were your lifts like? What did you go on with after SS?

Nic.
Click to expand...

a year and a bit. got my squat rack in august so that's when i started squatting.
i did 125 before SS. not sure about how good my form was. started SS at 75kg, back squatting monday/friday. i got up to 105 and my form was much better, alot deeper. then one drunken night i decided to have my friends sit on my shoulders while i squatted them and i did something to my knee. so i had a week off and wanted to try something else.
i didn't test 1rm. wish i had. however in that time my deadlift went up 20kg, bench up 7.5kg, and put on 3kg (i'm an ectomorph so 3kg was a big deal for me).

after SS i did 5/3/1 and 20 rep squats at the same time and overtrained lol. then i was fried for 4 weeks.

i should've stayed on SS but my reasons for training is to try everything so i have experience. i probably would be stronger than i am now if i stayed on SS.
 
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Nic said:
high rep deadlifts and 20 rep squats three times a week, pressing and bench pressing on the same day? It seems a little much to me.
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It's supposed to be too much. That's what makes your body change.

Let's say I drop down onto the ground now and do as many pushups as I can. I squeeze out 20. Phew, I say, that's enough. Tomorrow, and every day for the rest of my life, I do 15 pushups. Will I get stronger? No. Because it's not too much, it's well within my capacity.

But if I do 10 pushups tomorrow, 11 the day after, 12 the day after that, and so on - at some point "it's a little bit too much", and my body adapts.

If it's easy then there's no reason for my body to change. If it makes me go "fuuuuuuuu.... that was hard!" then my body has a reason to change. It's for this reason that in every workout, do more than you did before - more weight, more reps or more sets. If you do the same thing all the time then your body will stay the same.

There's an optimal level of stress for your body. Too little and it doesn't change. Too much and you get an injury. Just enough and it changes. How do you find "just enough"? Well, traditionally people start with just the bar, learn the exercise, if you could make the target reps, then next session add some weight and go again. Keep adding more weight until you can't do the reps, then do more sets.

Yep, that means it'll always be a little bit too much. Your workouts will never be easy. If they are, they're pointless.
 
Regarding some of the suggestions that programming is the issue, I agree. At this stage we'll be going back to SS and stop ****ing around. I'm curious about the popularity of Markos' programs here. Maybe Markos or someone else would explain something to me, but looking at the programme as Sticky has posted it, I can't help but think that's a hell of alot of volume. I mean, high rep deadlifts and 20 rep squats three times a week, pressing and bench pressing on the same day? It seems a little much to me. I'll assume from the get go I'm wrong on this one, but maybe someone could explain the logic of it to me.

Nic.

On the first page of this thread I said you dont train hard enough. Obviously without watching you train, it was merely an assumption.

You just confirmed it with your post. I hate saying this, because I want everyone lifting, its how I make a living, but this "hobby" may not be for you.

As far as Nick goes, when he started at PTC, he was squatting 130kg, benching 100kg and deadlifting 150kg.

Following my training he now squats 220kg, benches 150kg and deadlifts 275kg. He has also pressed 142.5kg overhead, a little under what he was deadlifting and more than he squatted in his first session.

If I'd told him he would be able to do that when he started, he wouldve turned around and never returned.

I dont recall him ever complaining once in those 2 years. His bodyweight has gone from 90kg to 113kg, and he is leaner now than when he started. By a long way.

Nick bought into the PTC training from day one and has never complained or questioned. You havent started and your already questioning it, yet your progress, and I use the term loosely, has been poor, your words.

In 2 years Nick never once started a thread on a forum asking for advice about training. Kelly, Alen and Max are the same.

I'm sure there is a lesson there somewhere.

You wont find the answer for your situation on a forum sorry to say.

Good luck big fella.
 
Nic, no offense intended, but I do not think you know much about training. Just stick to SS and do it by the book you will get a lot stronger and learn a lot by doing that for a year (properly though, do it as it says). Once you have trained for a year and read up on material then look into changing up what you are doing.
 
Just going to put it out there I'm one of those people who sucks at high volume - I tried to deadlift with a 90% and 100% set for 4 months, my deadlift stalled and then began decreasing before I dropped back to one set of 100% ONCE a week and got results.

I cringe at the idea of deadlifting x3 a week, though i know its a completely different equation for a rank novice.

Serious, low volume training (McRobert, Rippetoe, 5x5, 5/3/1) is some of the best training you can do - I find it hilarious when people's bench days involve 4-5 different assistance exercises.
 
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No debate here Kyle. I understand the concept this no problem (when I started training this is something I had no concept of and I paid the price in wasted time).

I'm not arguing that stressing your body won't make you stronger, but that the stress has to be within a limit to enable adaptation. The programme drawn up by Markos that has been posted in this thread strikes me as too much stress.

SS works on the principle of progressively adding weight to your lifts every training session, as does Markos' programme. By contrast however, whilst Rippetoe advises the trainee to bench and press on alternate days and only to deadlift 3 times a fortnight, Markos is telling us (if I've got this right) to do all of these every training session. This is where I'm scratching my head. Why the difference in approach?

Nic.
 
mate, here's a recent post from noobs training diary. he follows PTC's beginner program pretty closely. he's got very, very low T levels. after you read this, tell me if all the high volume work isn't paying off.........

n00bs said:
Deadlift 170kg x5 back gave in i need a massage

Bent rows
 80x 6r x 5

Close grip bench press
80x 6r x 3

Shrugs
140x12r x 3

Same gay tricep hammerstrength pushdown machine
100x10r x 3
Click to expand...
 

Thanks for the advice Markos. Unfortunately I don't roll over that easily.

You say that in my last post I've confirmed to you that I don't train hard enough. I think you misunderstand what I originally said.

Instead of bolding the entire quote from me, I want to highlight the point I think you miss:

"Maybe Markos or someone else would explain something to me, but looking at the programme as Sticky has posted it, I can't help but think that's a hell of alot of volume. I mean, high rep deadlifts and 20 rep squats three times a week, pressing and bench pressing on the same day? It seems a little much to me. I'll assume from the get go I'm wrong on this one, but maybe someone could explain the logic of it to me."

I never said it was "a little much for me". As much as it would be a quick fix, I'm not as much of a sissy as you might like me to be. I said it seems a little much to me, ie. the work you are perscribing seems too stressful to adequately recover from. This was my immediate reaction, not necessarily the right one. By asking these kind of questions I'm trying to get an understanding. I'm not interested in following a programme prescribed to me by someone I've never met over a tiny internet forum if I can't grasp the logic of it. I'm not denying your a good trainer and I'm not denying your guys and girls have gotten results, but I'm looking for a bit of backup here, I want to understand what I'm doing.

PTC said:
Nick bought into the PTC training from day one and has never complained or questioned. You havent started and your already questioning it, yet your progress, and I use the term loosely, has been poor, your words.
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As strange as it might seem Markos, yes I am questioning it. I don't like dogma and I don't like blindly following authority. That's the way I work. If you've got a problem with that, I can't help, but I wish you all the best in overcoming it.

PTC said:
In 2 years Nick never once started a thread on a forum asking for advice about training. Kelly, Alen and Max are the same.
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Well it makes life a little easier when you have a trainer. Please forgive me for not knowing any in my area and having to try and find things out on my own as a beginner.

PTC said:
You wont find the answer for your situation on a forum sorry to say.
Click to expand...

Maybe not, but I'm sure it wouldn't hurt. Again, please forgive me for not knowing were else to turn. Sometimes we have to make do with what we got.

Nic.
 
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SS has you deadlift, PTC's has you do stiff legged deads, different exercises. A proper deadlift is more taxing due to the dead start a stiff legged dead utilises the eccentric. Also most coaches have different methods and opinions yet they all stick to the main rules of heavy compounds with constant progression the other stuff is just down to their differing opinions.

Markos could have someone on his program 3 times a week and adjust it (or their food intake, another strong and important similarity between SS and PTC beginner). I like starting people off with slightly lower volume and then work more in to their optimal level. Personally though I think Markos' volume is fine he is not throwing in dips, lateral raises etc etc like most people do it is just two pressing movements with no added filler to take from your recovery. Beginners need to learn proper motor control and frequent lifting will do this, it is the most important reason that beginners make such good early strength gains.
 
Thanks for the post Dave

(Excuse me trying to boost my post count, need to get to 10 before I can send out PMs)

Nic.
 
Nic said:
I'm not arguing that stressing your body won't make you stronger, but that the stress has to be within a limit to enable adaptation.
Click to expand...
It just has to be below the level that'll injure you.
The programme drawn up by Markos that has been posted in this thread strikes me as too much stress.
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I'd respond that you never know until you try. I could point to the fact that Markos' outline here is essentially what was offered back 60-70 years ago by prominent strongmen and bodybuilders. Something like that went out as a brochure with the York barbell and plate set in the 1930s, which you can see here. This sort of approach has helped many people build a lot of basic strength and muscle.

But really you never know until you try. My caution would be that when you begin a programme of resistance training, you are going to have all sorts of aches and pains and twinges pop up. You may mistake these for injury. So long as the pain doesn't restrict movement, it's likely not injury - it's just muscles being worked that haven't been worked before, your body saying "mate what the hell are you doing?!" This passes after the first couple of weeks, and should not be mistaken for "this is too much for me."

Notice the rep ranges are different. Let's imagine that you bench press 40kg, and can lift it 12 times, but not a 13th time. Now we make it 50kg, which you can lift 8 times. Now 55kg, and you can only bench it 5 times.

Pushing up 40kg x12 is different to pushing up 55kg x5. The higher reps draw more on your muscular endurance and less on your strength compared to the lower reps. After 1 minute or so you could bench 40kg x12 again. If you tried to bench 55kg x5 again after a minute, you'd probably fail, only getting 2-3 reps. After 3-5 minutes' rest, you could do 55kg x5, though.

Similarly, you require less rest from one day to the next with higher reps. After a weight training workout you'll typically have muscle soreness the day after. This soreness comes about because you've been contracting your muscles against resistance, and they tear a little bit - like a rope fraying under strain. The next day the body starts repairing the tears, and there's inflammation - thus the soreness.

With 5 rep efforts you get more muscle tearing. This makes sense if you see someone doing a 5 rep max compared to a 12 rep max. The movements are slower and more stressful to the muscles' strength. So the day after a SS workout you'll be more sore than the day after a workout like this one. Thus, you need more rest, so Rippetoe and Kilgore have the exercises swapped around a bit.

Remember also that you're not starting with some huge weight in these exercises. Are you really telling me that you would be smashed from the PTC workout... using just the bar? Surely not. Begin with just the bar, next session add a few kgs, and so on. By the time you get to weights that challenge you, you'll be physically ready for that challenge.

In the end it doesn't matter a great deal for a beginner just which routine you do. Your body adapts because it's asked to do more than it was doing before. A beginner was doing nothing, so anything is more.

What's important is that every workout has something for legs, a pull and a push. A deep knee-bend, pick something heavy up off the ground and put something heavy overhead - this phrasing is stolen from Markos but the concept of legs, pull, push is widespread and quite old. If in every workout you do legs, pull, push, then you work legs, back and biceps/forearms, chest and shoulders/triceps. Abs and lower back get worked by having good posture and bracing during those other movements.

As for rep ranges, again for the beginner it's not that important. What's important is to do more in every workout - more weight, more reps or more sets. If you wanted to, your first workout could be [notation is Exercise Weight Sets x Reps],

Bench 20kg 1x1, Squat 20kg 1x1, Deadlift 20kg 1x1

then in your second workout, you have to add weight, reps or sets to each one. For example,

Bench 25kg 1x1, Squat 20kg 1x2, Deadlift 20kg 2x1

then your next,

Bench 25kg 1x2, Squat 20kg 2x2, Deadlift 25kg 2x1

and so on and so forth. This would be a very weak and slow start, but it doesn't matter so long as you do more in every session, you get to the same place in the end anyway. It just takes you a month or two longer because you had a slow start. Eventually you reach something like,

Bench 50kg 3x6, Squat 70kg 2x15, Deadlift 100kg 3x5

or some other rep and set range, depending on what you find comfortable and safe. Now, I would not start with just a single rep and set of this, you could do more than that. But if you did start like that, so long as you did more in every session you'd get to the same place in the end.

Some of the old books by guys like Sandow (1890s strongman) would have you do 15 different dumbell exercises, doing 1 set of each in the first month, 2 sets in the second month, and 3 sets in the third month. And that works, too. Same again - more weight, more reps or more sets.

The Chinese have a couple of relevant sayings. The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step, and he who deliberates too long before taking the first step will be lefting standing on one leg. So choose a workout routine, whichever you think looks good, start with just the bar, do the routine regularly and frequently, and stick with it - always adding weight, reps or sets.

Don't overthink it. Just get your body moving, and get it moving against resistance. There is no One True Perfect workout, all that matters is that you work your whole body in the workout, and that you progress the effort.

Where are you in this wide brown land of ours, Nic? This sht really makes no sense on paper or screen, it's a simple and practical thing - pick up something heavy, put it down again. It makes more sense once you get under the bar and start doing it. Depending where you are, we might have someone on the board who could work with you. Makes much much more sense once you do it.
 


Are you more focused on the asthetics side or strenght? Ps if you keep drinking that much full cream milk you'll probably continue to add fat on your frame
 
derkaderka said:
Are you more focused on the asthetics side or strenght?
Click to expand...

Asthetics is part of the package, but at the moment I want to focus on getting stronger.

derkaderka said:
Ps if you keep drinking that much full cream milk you'll probably continue to add fat on your frame
Click to expand...

I'm surprised you pick on me for the milk and not for something like the sausages with brekkie. Besides, its hardly a litre a day, is it really that much? I was drinking 3L a couple months back.

Nic.
 
Nic, high GI carbs like those from milk have a massively high insulin response.

Kyle youre way off - a 20 rep set is where you take your 10RM and do 20 reps with it. I couldnt do that x3 a week.

If he cant take the volume then maybe thats fair enough - I couldnt take it either, and that was when i was eating 5000-7000 calories a day.
 

Given my situation, is using the bar really ideal? After 4 program changes, do we really need to change again, this time to start with the bar again? I mean it's bad enough we wasted alot of time with deloads when starting new programmes before, but if you're asking us to do it all again...


In case you missed it the first time, we've been trying to do this for 7 months.

Nic said:
Where are you in this wide brown land of ours, Nic?
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I'm in South-West Sydney.

Nic.
 
Oliver04 said:
Nic, high GI carbs like those from milk have a massively high insulin response.
Click to expand...

I had never considered this before. What do you suggest as a solution, Oliver? Especially considering most of my milk consumption is before bed (always half a litre of more, sometimes up to 1 full litre if I can handle it), if the first priority is dropping it, what could fill the void?

Nic.
 
Weak is weak.

Seeing on how most are focusing on the deadlift, and the volume lol, I hate doing this, but here goes, only lifters from PTC, not interstaters at comps.

Nick 275kg @ 107kg
Kelly 255kg @ 79kg
Nico 235kg @ 79kg (junior)
Max 215kg @ 74kg (teenager)

Brittany 140kg @ 72kg (junior)
Annie 135kg @ 71kg

We now have 52 lifters at PTC deadlift over 200kg.

Nic, you claim you have no trainer. I gave you advice, you questioned it. You fail as a client.

SS moderator Gary, claims his deadlift to be his best lift, a seasoned competitor, weighing 84kg, his best beltless deadlift is 212.5kg, his claims.

PTC is only 30 months old, these lifts were done at the guys first comp.

Max has less than 2 years total lifting, has 2 National Deadlift records.He is 18 and will have a 3rd shortly, and possibly a World Record to go with it.

Good luck in your lifting Nic.
 
Oliver04 said:
Kyle youre way off - a 20 rep set is where you take your 10RM and do 20 reps with it. I couldnt do that x3 a week.
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Perhaps you couldn't. Have you tried? Others have. Some were alright, some couldn't handle it. They never knew until they tried.

If he cant take the volume then maybe thats fair enough.
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I agree. If he can't, that's fair enough. But he doesn't know. You don't know until you try.

Most people I've worked with, when I told them what we were going to do in that session, they'd say, "I can't do that." Then we tried, and found they could. I'm sure at some point I'll have someone who tries and then we find they were right, they couldn't do it. But most of the time - people can do it if they try.

Obviously if the person is asked to do 100 work sets or add 50kg to their bench today, they're not going to be able to do it. But they can certainly do 1 more rep or 1 more kg in each exercise. Somewhere between those two extremes is something they can manage, but which will be challenging for them - and thus force their body to adapt.

They don't know what that level is until they try.
Nic said:
Given my situation, is using the bar really ideal? After 4 program changes, do we really need to change again, this time to start with the bar again?
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The best routine is the one you'll stick to. If starting with the bar is what's necessary to get you to start a routine and stick with it, then yes it's ideal. If you're scared to even try some offered routine because you think it's too high volume, well if the sets and reps seem high to you, we can lower the weight - lower it to just the bar.

It'd be better for you to go in and have a test session, and we have a look at what you can lift for the target reps, and then we start you there. But if you're really really scared of doing 10 reps instead of 5, well fine, start with the bar.

This is all a journey for you. If you're going to walk from Sydney to Melbourne it doesn't really matter if you start from Rose Bay or Bondi. Two years from now it won't make any difference whether today you started with the bar or 50kg. What will matter is whether over those two years you did more in every session, and did the routine 2+ times a week.

Consistent effort over time gets results. I am concerned with your having a routine which will give you the best chance of consistency. I really don't care whether that's Starting Strength or PTC or with just the bar or 50kg or whatever. You just have to stick to it and progress in every session. Whatever will make that most likely to happen is good.

You're deliberating before taking the first step, standing there on one leg, and looking unbalanced. That's why Markos has the response he does. The key thing is not the precise route you take to your destination, but that you start moving there. Now.

Get up now, turn off the computer, and go and move your body against some resistance. Do it again tomorrow. Increase that resistance or the number of movements in every session. Keep that up and you'll get results. Keep looking for the One True Perfect Routine and you'll get no results.

When I work with people, I'm happy to explain all this stuff. I think people do better when they understand the reasons for what they're doing. But I explain it while you're resting between sets. Once the clock ticks round, it's time to lift again. You can't use the discussion to get extra rest time, though many people do try.
 
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