Alpha Moth
New member
I just want something simple to follow without thinking "oh should i do 6x3 or 6 x 6, what weight, etc etc"
I just want something simple to follow without thinking "oh should i do 6x3 or 6 x 6, what weight, etc etc"
Posted a workout a few pages ago.
The other as mentioned is 5/3/1. The boring but big template is surprisingly good. Most blokes follow the revised template and do the bench BBB on the OHP day and visa versa. Same for squats and deadlifts.
The 5x10 is for the same lift you use as the main lift
I know El Freako has had success will this template but for a n00bish lifter 5x10@60% or whatever it is seems too low to illicit a training response.
Maybe going rep effort style and attempting 2x25 might work better until the gap between say a 10RM and 1RM has been reduced
BBB is main lift or derivative for 5*10. 5*10 bench or incline would be BBB on bech day. Unless Wendler has revised his book? I would think BBB assistance for bench would typicallly be 5*10 some sort of bench, 5*10 dips or some other supplemantry lift.
Apparently he has made some revisions. The one he posted at Tnation was like this. Check the BBB 3 month challege:
Squat 531, DL BBB + Assistance
Bench 531, OHP BBB + Assistance
DL 531, Squat BBB + Asssitance
OHP 531, Bench BBB + Assistance
T NATION | The Boring But Big 3-Month Challenge
I started at 50% and instead of using a % and increasing the weight by 2.5kg, I just went up 5kg instead the first couple of times to be somewhere above 60%. As Wendler says best to start light and work up. Seems to be the mantra of the whole program. I also try to keep the rest down as much as possible and by the 4th set your feeling it.
That's the complex method - working several aspects of strength at the same time
The conjugate method is the act of rotating or changing up
Speed training has nothing to do with the conjugate method
xD
Just be careful with this mate, it's an awesome exercises but few people can do it full ROM without causing problems either now or later down the track. Stopping at the top of the head would be considere "safe" ROM for everyone.
I bench twice a week following the basic Westside template. Ive seen a few people on here that don't agree with speed benching, or benching with bands saying that it doesnt carry over for the RAW lifter but haven't been able to find how or if they've even trained that way. For all I know they couldve been using the wrong percentages for them personally or for a raw lifter in general.
As far as I see it, I train one heavy day focusing on increasing absolute strength and one day working technique and speed-strength. Think of it this way, to change or engrain a motor pattern/technique it's said to take 1000 repetitions. Benching 5x5 twice a week gives you a total of 50 reps. The quality of those reps begin to diminish as fatique sets in. So you'll get maybe 10-12 QUALITY reps a week. Not a whole lot if you're trying to keep your back tight, tuck properly, tear the bar apart etc.
So especially in the case of beginners like EL Freako said, technique and strength are both a big part of the equation.
I need help with my bench.
If my 1RM is ~80kg, should I do something like Ed coans program, one heavy day, one light. Or should I hit it 2 times a week heavier?
I respond better to higher volume I think, I never get anywhere on the 5 x 5 stuff.
Sorry I havent been able to get on the computer for a while.
Its good to see you can use Google and find out the definitions as Verkoshansky see's them, but I am (we were) talking about Louie Simmons' conjugate method which "conjugates- to marry or couple" mulitple methods into one. The complex method and Conjugate SEQUENCE method are both involved in WBB periodisation. Complex method is ME,DE and RE work and Sequence is used to rotate the exercises as often as necessary to avoid accommodation.
On another note, it's also good to see that you had responses for all the other things I brought up in the last post.............
Fwiw Travis Bell has gone from 365 to over 565 unequipped since he moved to Westside training for equipped comps so clearly the ME/DE can work for unequipped guys
And they still rotate in higher rep extra wide or close grip bench on both days as a main or assistance lift
Answering an old post..BBB is main lift or derivative for 5*10. 5*10 bench or incline would be BBB on bech day. Unless Wendler has revised his book? I would think BBB assistance for bench would typicallly be 5*10 some sort of bench, 5*10 dips or some other supplemantry lift.
Sorry to jump in here and post in response to an old post but here I go.
First, the point you're trying to make about the 5x5 is a pretty terrible one. How you arrived at 10-12 "quality" reps with doing 5x5 twice a week is beyond me. Fatigue doesn't set in that quickly and I'd argue you get 3-4 quality reps per set...especially in the first sets. Maybe only 3 on the last one. Either way I'd say a minimum of 15 quality reps per session, 30 total for the week. I assume you are using speed as the criteria for quality in your example here. I think it's noteworthy that even in prilepin's table the recommended rep range for a 70% load before speed and therefore quality diminishes too greatly is 3-6. So if you're looking at a 5x5 with 70-80% I wouldn't say you're too far outside this range.
As a side note I'd also like to comment that if speed is your qualifier for quality or productive reps then a max effort day is therefore just as useless as the 5x5 per your example...even more so since you're so close to limit you don't even get a couple quality first reps before grinding.
As for speed benches, I've heard several debates on both sides as to their usefulness. I have done it for a few months continuously, using correct percentages which were also tested and qualified by bar speed. Do I think it helps? I have no idea. I was also doing a max effort day at the time and I was making slow but steady progress.
Question for everyone is how would you know it it worked unless you stopped doing max effort work altogether. Unless you were to assume that your max effort work wasn't making you stronger... For all most of us know it's effectiveness could simply lie in it's deloading effect from your heavy day to elicit recovery without detraining. I noticed no difference in gains when switching from DE work to repetition work on that day (3-4 sets of 10 with ~60%).
I believe he was responding in reference to your post stating "As a whole, Conjugated Periodisation (westside programmimg), did not take into account for the development of geared lifting many years after it was originally thought up by the Dynamo Club. "
We should stop throwing conjugations around and instead refer to Westside's "Current" method as westside programming. As I'm sure we all know the Dynamo Club did not do speed work. They rotating special max effort exercises only. Maybe these fancy terms sound smart but it just makes for useless, pissy debate.
I think it's noteworthy also that the DE day evolved mainly on the basis of not being able to recover from two max effort days per week. What westside used to do on that day was repetition work following prilepin's table:
Week 1: 70% x 8x3
Week 2: 75% x 8x3
Week 3: 80% x 6x3
Week 4: 85% x 5x2
Week 5: 80%x2, 85%x2, 90%x2
Week 6: Max or start over
So the arguments over what is or is no longer westside and who is/isn't doing it is a very stupid one. As Oni said, to get really pedantic over it the only ones who truly train Westside were Bill West and the rest of the original crew and those strictly following their template which, btw, also changed over time.
I will admit it's very uncool of me to come in and comment on old posts, but you did outright insult Oni and many others in this forum about not having thoughts/ideas of their own. On that point, I wonder if you yourself do? Or are you, like so many others, simply sucking at the teet of simmons for the sake of "training westside". Why these dogmatic affiliations are so important to people, I'll never understand.
Even Simmons himself simply copied and combined what the russians and original westside guys were doing. Also, a bit off-topic, it was Bill Seno who got Louie's bench from 340-480 raw by telling him to bench wide for heavy 6's, 8's and 10's. Hardly a fancy ME/DE/RE or super-conjugalated approach. Might there be a lesson there somewhere?
This thread is funny.
I've ran a modified smolov jnr and Coan for bench.
I got my best gains from smolov, but it's not a sustainable program. Maybe something you'd bring out once or twice a year.
Coan I like a lot, it's what I base all my lifting around at the moment, and should see me PR everything at this comp on Sunday.
If you bench less than 115-120, just stick to Coan type progressions and you will be fine.
Make sure you have a good set up, and smash your back work.
Not sure if I should get into the whole technique thing again......