BCAA's

Most people I know that live and breath the industry, yet also have a stake in a supplement product of some sort are pretty honest. People aren't as stupid these days and if you're talking crap, people are going to ignore you. The people living by what they preach get the most credibility as there are so many other fitness people out there just talking with without much to back it up.

Just because someone may have an interest selling a product, doesn't mean what they say is false. The people I follow only stock/sell what they personally use.

Big Mick said:

Was extensively answered in post three of this thread, the response would only be relevant it a fasted state where you have not eaten for a few days prior to training, you need to read more than the glossy label on the product you buy. These responses only occur in fasted depleted subjects, and like I posted earlier, if you fast someone for 24hrs a Tim Tam Biscuit or table spoon of sugar will provide a hormonal response.

The science and practices have improved, but the body is still the same the marketing has improved as well, they sold aminos and proteins etc back in the 80's as well. The difference is I have spend time studying this for over 35 years, I have learned how to read and understand labels, the ingredients and what they do, rather than believe what the glossy front label tells you with the little asterix next to the claim where the disclaimer is in tiny almost unreadable print hidden somewhere. Just like your ON Gold Standard WPI Protein you bought believing it is high quality WPI by the front label but once you look at the ingredients and values you can easily work out that the 'WPI' is actually poorer quality that WPC with added digestive aids and WPC and milk powder fillers, which is still a useable protein , but you have just payed for something that you never got.

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Not true. Go eat a mars bar; will your blood sugar rise, triggering an insulin response? Of course. Also try skipping a meal or 2. Will you body shut down and die. Again, of course not, it will use fat and protein stores as energy as a response of increases cortisol. By controlling insulin and cortisol you can eat smarter. Much like training smarter instead of just chaotically running around a gym trying to do everything at random.

I think you misunderstood my misunderstanding about my current protein powder I'm using. I was researching and weighing up which one to try out of about 10 different brands. I forgot that ON wasn't a pure WPI. I didn't get suckered into buying something I didn't want.

Davepuppies said:

walk the walk? - bodybuilding.

This is is a bodybuilding forum, and we are discussing bodybuilding and diet and supplementation related to bodybuilding.

have you been a Australian representative bodybuilder or Olympic lifter? Power Lifter? If not what disapline?

As as this is a forum about bodybuilding, ie the practice of gaining muscle and getting lean, walking the walk means you either are, or have done both. A pic would prove this. Otherwise you are another keyboard warrior

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I still think you confuse science and nutrition with how big and ripped or what ever someone is.

One does not relate to the other, we are not discussing Bodybuilding we are talking about basic nutrition and scientific principles. Your logic is flawed, how would a pic of me in any possible way relate to the way your body metabolises BCAA's??? I could be a skinny runt of 65kg and a massively obese 150kg lard arse, how would either of this affect the way your body uses BCAA's or and other food sources??

What you are suggesting is that no scientist or professor of nutrition is qualified to give nutritional advise unless they are huge and ripped, or that a doctor that knows how to eat healthy is unable to give that advise because he personally chooses to eat Maccas and KFC every day..makes no sense.

Davepuppies said:

have you been a Australian representative bodybuilder or Olympic lifter? Power Lifter? If not what disapline?

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Full contact Martial arts or cage fighting as it was referred to back before MMA became popular.

I also had extensive involvements in training the Australian Olympic TKD team and also the national team attending the World Championships, even though I have never done TKD.

Weights were used as a training aid, and I was responsible for tailoring workouts and nutritional needs for the competitors.

I was personally part of the team competing at the Long Beach internationals mens heavy weight open division, and also throughout asia and New Zealand. Throughout the 80's and 90's, I was a full time trainer and instructor/coach and personal trainer and government registered Referee (that was my job that I did for my income from about 1986 to 2003).

Nutrition and training is still a hobby of mine I am passionate about and that I spend a lot of time reading and studying.

Unlike where you get your advise I have no vested interests either way, I do not own supplement stores, or food stores or anything else, I am only interested in learning the truth. makes no difference to me if you piss $200 worth of supplements down the toilet every month or you don't, I just like to try and pass my knowledge on so that people can make their own decision, and instead of throwing thousands down the toilet may be you can go on a nice holiday.

It's easy to test just stop using all supplements for 3 month and see if there is any difference, I have stopped using them a while back have not even used protein powders any more and it has made absolutely no difference, and to be honest I sleep better at night and feel better during the day.

Do you really contribute your gains to some supplements?? That would be pretty sad IMO.

steveP said:

Most people I know that live and breath the industry, yet also have a stake in a supplement product of some sort are pretty honest. People aren't as stupid these days and if you're talking crap, people are going to ignore you. The people living by what they preach get the most credibility as there are so many other fitness people out there just talking with without much to back it up.

Just because someone may have an interest selling a product, doesn't mean what they say is false. The people I follow only stock/sell what they personally use.

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That also doesn't mean they are right. By definition, there is a conflict of interest because their personal reward is different depending on whether you choose to use the product they recommend or not.

Sure, they may believe 100% in their product, but genuineness doesn't prove anything. Most naturopaths and homeopaths believe 100% in what they do, even though evidence-based testing proves their methods are ineffective.

Think of it this way, there are 10 people who do some research (i.e. they all do the same research.) 1 of them comes to the conclusion that x supplement is beneficial and goes into business selling it. The other 9 become nutritionists because they believe that there is no benefit to the supplement, and that eating well is far more beneficial.

You go into the supplement shop and talk to the first guy, of course he's biased. Doesn't mean he's wrong, doesn't mean he's right - but he's still biased.

steveP said:

Not true. Go eat a mars bar; will your blood sugar rise, triggering an insulin response? Of course. Also try skipping a meal or 2. Will you body shut down and die. Again, of course not, it will use fat and protein stores as energy as a response of increases cortisol. By controlling insulin and cortisol you can eat smarter. Much like training smarter instead of just chaotically running around a gym trying to do everything at random.

I think you misunderstood my misunderstanding about my current protein powder I'm using. I was researching and weighing up which one to try out of about 10 different brands. I forgot that ON wasn't a pure WPI. I didn't get suckered into buying something I didn't want.

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Exactly my point, but you do not need supplements for any of this to occur, all you need is in the food you eat, if your diet is dialled in and you consume adequate protein throughout the day BCAA's do not have an affect, they will just get pissed out as your BCAA stores are full already. It's a pretty simple concept, if you have a 1 litre jug of water and it is full to the brim, there is no need to add more water it will just go to waste.

Supplements can only do something if you have deficiency of that particular supplement, once the gas tank is full it's full, everything else will just overflow, and I can guarantee that no person here would be deficient in BCAA's, as most body builders/weight trainers will eat more than enough protein throughout the day.

Again another lap of this. No one is saying they are deficient in BCAAs. People purely take BCAAs to prevent the body turning catabolic during strenuous exercise, which is when you have the highest release of cortisol. Consuming amino acids prevent this.

Of course you don't need to do this, but it's just a smarter way to get the most out of your training. You don't want your body feeding on itself if you can help it.

joeblowforshow said:

That also doesn't mean they are right. By definition, there is a conflict of interest because their personal reward is different depending on whether you choose to use the product they recommend or not.

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Of course, and this is where it comes down to discretion of the consumer. I'm just making a point that just because someone has a financial interest in something, it doesn't mean they're only doing it to rip people off.

it doesn't mean they're only doing it to rip people off.

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Totally agree.

steveP said:

Again another lap of this. No one is saying they are deficient in BCAAs. People purely take BCAAs to prevent the body turning catabolic during strenuous exercise, which is when you have the highest release of cortisol. Consuming amino acids prevent this.

Of course you don't need to do this, but it's just a smarter way to get the most out of your training. You don't want your body feeding on itself if you can help it.

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Mate you are still missing the point and I have mentioned this over and over, this does NOT happen, if what you say is correct then anyone who trains without taking BCAA supplements would be getting smaller as their muscles disappear due to a lack of BCAA's, this simply does not happen if you have consumed 250-500 grams of more of protein/meat/fish/eggs/peanuts etc within the last 24hrs. This (muscle wastage) will only occur in FASTED subjects ie persons that have been starved and depleted of these nutrients over a long period of time, not people who eat 2-6 meals a day, even only eating one meal per day will not leave you depleted.

You must be deficient for the supplement to have an effect, if you are not deficient ,as you yourself say, it would be like trying to fit 70 litres of petrol into your 50 litre tank. What will happen to the extra 20 litres?? The extra 20 litres will not make the car go further or faster, it will just get wasted.

This is a really simple concept to understand, not sure why people have such difficulty with it.

I think not everyone eats 250 grams of protein every single day, including off days. Thats when supplements like BCAAs and WPI's come into play. Maybe someone like Big Mick can eat a kilo of steak every sitting but I sure as hell don't feel like gobbling slabs of meat and protein on weekends.

The problem is you're looking at BCAAs in terms of their macro content. People take them to control hormones. It doesn't matter how full you are, if you stress the body, it's going to release cortisol.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bcaas-the-many-benefits-of-amino-acids.html

It's well established that branched-chain amino acids (particularly leucine) stimulate protein synthesis, and might do so to a greater extent than a normal protein on its own. BCAAs also increase synthesis of the cellular machinery responsible for carrying out the process of protein synthesis. Thus, BCAAs not only increase the rate of protein synthesis, but they also increase the cell's capacity for protein synthesis!

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BCAAs have even more positive benefits than reduced breakdown and increased protein synthesis. They might also help improve workout intensity! BCAAs compete with the amino acid tryptophan for entry into the brain, where tryptophan can be converted to the neurotransmitter serotonin.

During exercise, serotonin levels rise and can (among other things) increase the perception of fatigue—that means a less intense workout for you.

BCAA supplementation reduces the amount of tryptophan that enters the brain, and therefore reduces the amount of serotonin produced. This might allow you to work harder, longer.

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The BCAAs in whey are peptide-bound to other amino acids and, in order to be effective, must be liberated through digestion and then absorbed into the bloodstream. Even though whey protein is relatively fast digesting, it still takes several hours for all the amino acids to be liberated and absorbed into the bloodstream.

BCAAs in supplement form, however, are free-form, require no digestion, and are rapidly absorbed into the bloodstream. They spike blood amino acid levels to a much greater and faster extent than peptide-bound aminos. Even a few grams of free-form BCAAs will spike BCAA plasma levels to a much greater extent than 30 grams of whey protein, thereby impacting protein synthesis and protein degradation to a much greater degree.

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If you don't want to train with BCAAs, fine. I've training for years without them and now with. Personally I feel I train much better with them. I don't fatigue as easy and I can push out more reps because of this. This is what Dave was alluding to. If you're not actually training and trying these things out in the real world, you wouldn't know if they have an effect or not.

Jungnaut said:

I think not everyone eats 250 grams of protein every single day, including off days. Thats when supplements like BCAAs and WPI's come into play. Maybe someone like Big Mick can eat a kilo of steak every sitting but I sure as hell don't feel like gobbling slabs of meat and protein on weekends.

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I think you are confused. You must not have read the posts here, or understood them.

So you are saying you would not be consuming 250grams of meat a day?? Are you vegetarian??

I am willing to bet every single person on this forum would be consuming 250-500 grams per day, or what do you eat??

A chicken breast is probably 250 grams, 250 grams of steak is only a tiny little piece and it would have 2-3 servings of BCAA's.

steveP said:

The problem is you're looking at BCAAs in terms of their macro content. People take them to control hormones. It doesn't matter how full you are, if you stress the body, it's going to release cortisol.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bcaas-the-many-benefits-of-amino-acids.html







If you don't want to train with BCAAs, fine. I've training for years without them and now with. Personally I feel I train much better with them. I don't fatigue as easy and I can push out more reps because of this. This is what Dave was alluding to. If you're not actually training and trying these things out in the real world, you wouldn't know if they have an effect or not.

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Spot on.

mick, have you researched a bolus dose of BCAA and its affect on Mtor? are you familiar with Mtor?

essentially Luke's premise was a bolus dose of BCAA immediately after, or peri training increases,Mtor pathways to ALLOW FOR GREATER PROTEIN SYNTHESIS. wether you already have aminos circulating in your blood from your chicken, beef or eggs is irrelevant, the bolus BCAA dose spikes insulin, reduces cortisol and activates Mtor.

does this account for all my muscle? No. Does it give me a small benefit? Yes.

the reason I posted my pic, and asked you to do the same is I believe that real world practical experience beats Internet researched theories. As you alluded to, you could be a 60kg stick, or a 150kg blob trying to criticise and give advice. You went out of your way to challenge me, and that is fine, but I believe unless you have real world results and experience behind you, your internet research and beliefs mean zero to me.

Big Mick said:

I think you are confused. You must not have read the posts here, or understood them.

So you are saying you would not be consuming 250grams of meat a day?? Are you vegetarian??

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The average 300g chicken breast has approx 60g of protein. Grams of protein and grams of meat is a totally different calculation.

A vegetarian consumes 0g of meat a day. That's the definition of being a vegetarian.

And to clarify, I am not saying BCAA are neccesary, but I believe they give me a SMALL benefit.

As as a natural trainer I will take any extra small benefits I can get.

if you choose not, no problem, I don't have a problem with that, nor do I feel the need to start a 6 page thread on it.

Davepuppies said:

Spot on.

mick, have you researched a bolus dose of BCAA and its affect on Mtor? are you familiar with Mtor?

essentially Luke's premise was a bolus dose of BCAA immediately after, or peri training increases,Mtor pathways to ALLOW FOR GREATER PROTEIN SYNTHESIS. wether you already have aminos circulating in your blood from your chicken, beef or eggs is irrelevant, the bolus BCAA dose spikes insulin, reduces cortisol and activates Mtor.

does this account for all my muscle? No. Does it give me a small benefit? Yes.

the reason I posted my pic, and asked you to do the same is I believe that real world practical experience beats Internet researched theories. As you alluded to, you could be a 60kg stick, or a 150kg blob trying to criticise and give advice. You went out of your way to challenge me, and that is fine, but I believe unless you have real world results and experience behind you, your internet research and beliefs mean zero to me.

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I never challenged you, I challenged your trainer's bro science. And you still have not answered my original question how do you avoid BCAA's all day long to stop your receptors/pathways being blunted??

See here:

Davepuppies said:

MTor pathway gets blunted by constant BCAA consumption during the day

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How do you not consume BCAA's all day long? That was my main question?

I consume EAA all day from my protein, not BCAA. Big difference.

consuming the 3 branched chain aminos all day on top of my food was Luke's advice, then take one bolus dose.

The he same question to you. Tell me about Mtor Mick

Davepuppies said:

I consume EAA all day from my protein, not BCAA. Big difference.

consuming the 3 branched chain aminos all day on top of my food was Luke's advice, then take one bolus dose.

The he same question to you. Tell me about Mtor Mick

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That is not what you said, you said that you were advised to avoid consuming BCAA's all day and only take one dose around training or after training, my question is how do you avoid ingesting them all day?? Every time you eat meat you ingest BCAA's,

And I hope you do know/realise that BCAA's are also EAA, and that when you take EAA you are also consuming BCAA's. so the trainer that has told you to avoid BCAA's as the receptors get blunted has then sold you EAA (which consist of BCAA's) to consume all day….fucking LOL, how the fuck are you avoiding BCAA"s when you are consuming them all day long, in food and supplements.

So your are saying you have EEA's all day, you eat food I assume and then you also buy BCAA's??

Thats like putting 70 litres of unleaded into your cars 50 litre tank than adding another 10 litres of premium hoping the car will go further, without realising the extra 30 litres spilled all over the ground and are running down the drain, and you still only able to use the first 50 litres.

Davepuppies said:

And to clarify, I am not saying BCAA are neccesary, but I believe they give me a SMALL benefit.

As as a natural trainer I will take any extra small benefits I can get.

if you choose not, no problem, I don't have a problem with that, nor do I feel the need to start a 6 page thread on it.

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Well it is a body building forum, what else are we going to talk about??

Big Mick said:

That is not what you said, you said that you were advised to avoid consuming BCAA's all day and only take one dose around training or after training, my question is how do you avoid ingesting them all day?? Every time you eat meat you ingest BCAA's,

And I hope you do know/realise that BCAA's are also EAA, and that when you take EAA you are also consuming BCAA's. so the trainer that has told you to avoid BCAA's as the receptors get blunted has then sold you EAA (which consist of BCAA's) to consume all day….fucking LOL, how the fuck are you avoiding BCAA"s when you are consuming them all day long, in food and supplements.

So your are saying you have EEA's all day, you eat food I assume and then you also buy BCAA's??

Thats like putting 70 litres of unleaded into your cars 50 litre tank than adding another 10 litres of premium hoping the car will go further, without realising the extra 30 litres spilled all over the ground and are running down the drain, and you still only able to use the first 50 litres.

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I get my EAAs from my food. It's called protein.

yes I am aware the 3 aminos are also part of The essential aminos in food, but not absorbed as quickly therefore not invooking the same hormonal responses.