Anyone game to say how much PEDs help your performance?

[spartacus]

I have a hope that athletes, once they know more about subject, have more confidence to make the right lifestyle decision.

Take the issue of drugs in sport. My personal obervation, and i have asked many, many people (mostly sport champions), is that PEDs (primarily anabolic steroids) may help strength levels by anywhere from 10-20% (around 15% most common answer), sprint speed about 3%, and throwing distances about 10%.

Of course, there may be some important exceptions, low testosterone levels for some and even women (which i have never got an answer from).

Point of this thread, however, is to show that drugs are not really answer, although there sure my be some ramifications at top level if great clean athletes are beaten by those on drugs.

If lifters can demonstrate how much they gain from steroids, then others may be less tempted. This is especially relevant at lower levels of sport athletes where testing is much less prevalent.

Does anyone here on this forum want to add to debate by indicating how much gain they achieve?

 

[The Hamburgler]

Dave Tate is on video saying he's seen someone gain 400lb on their total

I've heard creatine is good for 20%, imagine if you combined that with Test and GH

 

[Danimal]

I've heard creatine is good for 20%, imagine if you combined that with Test and GH

lol

 

[0ni]

It depends how well you respond to drugs

 

[Sticky]

As if anybody will post...... and how could you possibly put a % on it...... Thats why the do double blind placebos Chris.

The closest you can get is compare the top IPF records to GPC/WPC records. But even then you have differences in equipment, not to mention that many IPF lifters have been caught anyway which leaves me dubious to the legitimacy of the "Clean records".


until the government allows a full blown study, any answers will be null and void.`

 

[spartacus]

Just for discussion Sticky. I have an interest in all feds, so not really trying to provoke.

Anyone can do a study, does not mean the studies will always be right. After all, academic literature from 1950 to late 70s had many studies saying anabolic steroids did little.

i was merely askign if anyone (lifter or bb) on this forum willing to indicate what their percentage of gain is or was.

Two of Aust's best ever powerlfters, who i can't name, told me they both got around 15%. This is not inuendo, but factual.

so, if the average youngster knows that this is the percentage they can hope to gain, i wonder if they would still be as tempted to try them.

 

[Sticky]

Yeah, Im not having a go.

What Im saying is, if some one is training, and then jump on the gas, how do they know how much of their performance increase was from gear?

You cant..... Thats why you would need to take an average of 100 lifters on the same program and diet.....

 

[0ni]

Most of the top records in Australia are done in the IPF
GPC is still the small time in Australia, although if you look at the difference between tested and untested on powerlifting watch, the difference is quite pronounced with people at 181 totalling similar than the drug free at 220

181 1,705 Jamie Lewis USA 09/15/12 PRPA
220 1,714 Greg Nuckols USA 08/11/12 %100

 

[spartacus]

Sticky, yes good point.

I think the best info comes from those who are experienced and have trained serious both on and off drugs.

One powerlifter, who won naitonal titiles both on and off, got about 15% difference in terms of total.

I have mates (body builders) who got 20%, 350 to 420 pounds bench, and others who got nothing because did not eat properly, so yes, a whole lot of variables come into it.

 

[spartacus]

Oni, given your interest in PA versus non-PA:

PA record raw total is 862.5kg, non PA raw record is 930kg.

Best bench PA 235kg versus 260g

Best deadlift PA versus 320kg versus 380kg.

do not compare squats beause too many variables

 

[The Hamburgler]

If you listen to Minh the deadlift bar puts the PA vs non-PA as equal lol.

You also have to presume the non-PA lifts were done with chemical enhancement, which they may not have been.

"If you knew you would get 15% improvement from taking steriods would you do it?"
Personally if I were to use, whether it was 5% or 50% wouldn't really influence my decision tbh

 

[spartacus]

No, for you it might be a visual thing.

I mean why else do competitive athletes want to take PEDs. Oh, maybe they too dont really care if it 5% or 50%.

Give me a break.

BTW, i dont presume anything about PA v non-PA. I merely ask about PED improvement. I amke no judgments about any fed, although I will be competing in PA once i get back into shape.

 

[The Hamburgler]

So a guy that's 50kg away from a 1000kg total wouldn't use if it was only going to give him 5%?

I mean, who wants to total a grand anyway.

Or a shot putter that needs an extra 5% to win an Olympic gold, or take a WR record, wouldn't take because it is only 5%

What kind of self absorbed athlete wants a gold medal or WR anyway, I mean really.

If someone wants every advantage they can get they will take it no matter how small.

Maybe you are just a poor competitor and should do away with your deceiving forum name.

 

[0ni]

Oni, given your interest in PA versus non-PA:

PA record raw total is 862.5kg, non PA raw record is 930kg.

Best bench PA 235kg versus 260g

Best deadlift PA versus 320kg versus 380kg.

do not compare squats beause too many variables

Now look at the other records... Anyone can use a sample size of 2 to prove a point

 

[0ni]

The main advantage of steroid use is to get to a higher level of muscularity that is unachievable naturally. This is why I will eventually be taking them. This is not a cosmetic thing though, more to get into a better weight class. Phil Harrington is my height and look at him lol

 

[spartacus]

Ok, i am a poor competitor, says you.

Oni, yes i agree that PA has most of records, they probably attract most of best lighter lifters.

Just used heavy divs as examples.

 

[vonfram88]

Does anyone here on this forum want to add to debate by indicating how much gain they achieve?

No, but I can predict that within 10-20 years from now, nearly all of those who are currently using will have zero or negative net gains. They likely won't even be training at all.

 

[0ni]

That's because PA only goes up to 120+

 

[spartacus]

ok Oni, thanks for informing me.

 

[strong enough?]

Comparing modern day feds is problematic due to rule differences and invites all sorts of unfair implications about who is using and who isn't. It's also unfair to imply/speculate someone's lifts were somehow lesser because of such rule differences. One of the other problems with comparisons is the reclassification of weight classes in 2010.

One better way to see the difference is to look at the wiped Oz IPF records from pre-1991 and compare them to Oz IPF from 1992 on. Most of the old records were either done when steroids weren't prohibited and pretty much every elite lifter used, or were done by people who actually tested positive when testing was introduced.

Pretty much all of the pre-1991 records were never beaten despite advances in equipment. In the most competitive divisions (75-100 classes), differences in the records are consistently about 8-10% despite equipment advances.

Now, you can't say definitively that the old record holders were only that good because of PEDs (and to do so would be extremely unfair) - maybe they were just consistently 10% stronger than the lifters who came a generation later, but it's the best guess you can make looking purely at stats. It's also broadly consistent with figures I've seen published elsewhere.

Another way is to just look at deadlift world records in the IPF pre-2010 (when the weight classes changed). The deadlift is interesting because in the IPF it is now performed under pretty much the same conditions as it was in the early 80s - same bar, same weight. Very little advantage could be gained by equipment. By the 2000s, Europeans in particular figured out that deadlifting sumo they could get decent advantages from suits - but nothing like squat/bench. But still, most of the deadlift records have stood since the early 1980s when the IPF had no drug testing. This is still not a perfect analysis because we know that many IPF record holders, particularly from the Eastern Bloc, from the 90s/00s were subsequently banned for doping (eg Belyaev). We also know Coan was banned for life for multiple doping offences. But he, like Lamar Gant, was a freak and that he probably would still be the greatest lifter ever, whether or not he used PEDs.