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High intensity training over str, for muscle gains.
wingman
Super M0derator
if shorter rest periods are good, wouldn't no rest periods be even better?
brb doing 2kg curls for 45mins non stop. (because you go catabolic after that)
2kg dumbells are catabolic
NightFallTech
Member
My experience... and admittedly, i'm not 'strong', although i have gotten stronger over the past few months (3RMs are +40KG squat, +15kg bench, +60kg dead), is that I get stronger at the 'big lifts' faster with low rep training (or i might just be learning better movement patterns..), but that my body shape changes more dramatically with 3-4 sets of 12-15 reps.
In my case that might just be because
A) i tend to injure myself more with low reps
B) i struggle to achieve the same intensity with low reps
C) I'm losing more fat with the increased energy expenditure and thus 'seeing more muscle' - definitely no ectomorph here.
D) I struggle to maintain form closer to my 1RM
I've been trying the 'strength' approach more recently and i just seem to racking up the injuries and 60 minutes after the workout, i'm not even feeling it... Which tells me i'm just not achieving the same intensity..
I'm also not built for the 'traditional lifts', I'm tall for a start with long levers and I don't remotely resemble a power lifters shape or large joints, so I think for those like me, while barbell compound exercises are obviously great, they are not the be all and end all for all lifters - For example, I struggle to come anywhere near working my quads with my squats, they are so much stronger/better leveraged than my hamstrings/glutes, to get a good quad workout, i'd have weight on my shoulders i just couldn't lift out of the hole - which is where leg press comes into play.
So, in short, low reps might work just as well in principle, but thats predisposed on the lifter being able to achieve appropriate intensity in short sets, which, i would say is arguably easier to achieve in longer sets. And where the 'power lifting' lifts are used, dependant on the lifter having suitably strong joints/ligaments and suitable levers to achieve heavy lifts without injury.
I'd also say that the most my quads & calves have ever grown was doing a lot of cycling (100km+ rides, and in hilly NZ), which is pretty high rep
Of course Bazza is right in that to get stronger you must have more muscle mass (although CNS adaptation is part of it as well - Its also possible to improve a lift with form improvements rather than increased strength), but the article agrees, saying that 'strength will come with development'. The article is simply suggesting that for somebody focused on building muscle mass over powerlifting, higher rep 'Development work' is more appropriate.
Another point is lifting dynamics... is a power lifting style bench maximizing arch, lat involvement, hip drive.. really of benefit if you are looking to improve muscle rather than increase your bench?
Clearly, for those built and inclined to power lifting (which Bazza clearly is), muscular development will come with the high weights lifted in strength training, however for others (like myself), i would struggle to achieve suitably high weights and intensity so close to my 1RM without injury, and therefore a lighter, but higher rep program would likely allow me to achieve my intensity with less injury.
pumpiniron
New member
pumpiniron
New member
if shorter rest periods are good, wouldn't no rest periods be even better?
brb doing 2kg curls for 45mins non stop. (because you go catabolic after that
I can understand your sarcasm, but i think you over exadurated this something big.
reps 5-10 10-15 maybe a few in the 15-20 range. anything over that is pritty pointless. U want to spend 45minutes to 1 hour-1.5 hours at most in the gym not 4 hours. lol
pumpiniron
New member
My experience... and admittedly, i'm not 'strong', although i have gotten stronger over the past few months (3RMs are +40KG squat, +15kg bench, +60kg dead), is that I get stronger at the 'big lifts' faster with low rep training (or i might just be learning better movement patterns..), but that my body shape changes more dramatically with 3-4 sets of 12-15 reps.
In my case that might just be because
A) i tend to injure myself more with low reps
B) i struggle to achieve the same intensity with low reps
C) I'm losing more fat with the increased energy expenditure and thus 'seeing more muscle' - definitely no ectomorph here.
D) I struggle to maintain form closer to my 1RM
I've been trying the 'strength' approach more recently and i just seem to racking up the injuries and 60 minutes after the workout, i'm not even feeling it... Which tells me i'm just not achieving the same intensity..
I'm also not built for the 'traditional lifts', I'm tall for a start with long levers and I don't remotely resemble a power lifters shape or large joints, so I think for those like me, while barbell compound exercises are obviously great, they are not the be all and end all for all lifters - For example, I struggle to come anywhere near working my quads with my squats, they are so much stronger/better leveraged than my hamstrings/glutes, to get a good quad workout, i'd have weight on my shoulders i just couldn't lift out of the hole - which is where leg press comes into play.
So, in short, low reps might work just as well in principle, but thats predisposed on the lifter being able to achieve appropriate intensity in short sets, which, i would say is arguably easier to achieve in longer sets. And where the 'power lifting' lifts are used, dependant on the lifter having suitably strong joints/ligaments and suitable levers to achieve heavy lifts without injury.
I'd also say that the most my quads & calves have ever grown was doing a lot of cycling (100km+ rides, and in hilly NZ), which is pretty high rep
Of course Bazza is right in that to get stronger you must have more muscle mass (although CNS adaptation is part of it as well - Its also possible to improve a lift with form improvements rather than increased strength), but the article agrees, saying that 'strength will come with development'. The article is simply suggesting that for somebody focused on building muscle mass over powerlifting, higher rep 'Development work' is more appropriate.
Another point is lifting dynamics... is a power lifting style bench maximizing arch, lat involvement, hip drive.. really of benefit if you are looking to improve muscle rather than increase your bench?
Clearly, for those built and inclined to power lifting (which Bazza clearly is), muscular development will come with the high weights lifted in strength training, however for others (like myself), i would struggle to achieve suitably high weights and intensity so close to my 1RM without injury, and therefore a lighter, but higher rep program would likely allow me to achieve my intensity with less injury.
U explained it pritty well, but i doubt bazza will understand.
pumpiniron
New member
Bazza is HAWT pumpiniron lol
I would back away from that challenge, just ever so slightly
In other news - there is more than one way to skin a cat. Find the training style that suits you, is comfortable for you and works for you - and JUST FUCKING DO IT.
R U OK BOYS?
3 years is a long time bella.
My experience... and admittedly, i'm not 'strong', although i have gotten stronger over the past few months (3RMs are +40KG squat, +15kg bench, +60kg dead), is that I get stronger at the 'big lifts' faster with low rep training (or i might just be learning better movement patterns..), but that my body shape changes more dramatically with 3-4 sets of 12-15 reps.
In my case that might just be because
A) i tend to injure myself more with low reps
B) i struggle to achieve the same intensity with low reps
C) I'm losing more fat with the increased energy expenditure and thus 'seeing more muscle' - definitely no ectomorph here.
D) I struggle to maintain form closer to my 1RM
I've been trying the 'strength' approach more recently and i just seem to racking up the injuries and 60 minutes after the workout, i'm not even feeling it... Which tells me i'm just not achieving the same intensity..
I'm also not built for the 'traditional lifts', I'm tall for a start with long levers and I don't remotely resemble a power lifters shape or large joints, so I think for those like me, while barbell compound exercises are obviously great, they are not the be all and end all for all lifters - For example, I struggle to come anywhere near working my quads with my squats, they are so much stronger/better leveraged than my hamstrings/glutes, to get a good quad workout, i'd have weight on my shoulders i just couldn't lift out of the hole - which is where leg press comes into play.
So, in short, low reps might work just as well in principle, but thats predisposed on the lifter being able to achieve appropriate intensity in short sets, which, i would say is arguably easier to achieve in longer sets. And where the 'power lifting' lifts are used, dependant on the lifter having suitably strong joints/ligaments and suitable levers to achieve heavy lifts without injury.
I'd also say that the most my quads & calves have ever grown was doing a lot of cycling (100km+ rides, and in hilly NZ), which is pretty high rep
Of course Bazza is right in that to get stronger you must have more muscle mass (although CNS adaptation is part of it as well - Its also possible to improve a lift with form improvements rather than increased strength), but the article agrees, saying that 'strength will come with development'. The article is simply suggesting that for somebody focused on building muscle mass over powerlifting, higher rep 'Development work' is more appropriate.
Another point is lifting dynamics... is a power lifting style bench maximizing arch, lat involvement, hip drive.. really of benefit if you are looking to improve muscle rather than increase your bench?
Clearly, for those built and inclined to power lifting (which Bazza clearly is), muscular development will come with the high weights lifted in strength training, however for others (like myself), i would struggle to achieve suitably high weights and intensity so close to my 1RM without injury, and therefore a lighter, but higher rep program would likely allow me to achieve my intensity with less injury.
Ok clearly there is a misunderstanding of what I am saying. I am not saying anyone needs to train like a powerlifter. I am not saying you need to train low reps. I am not even saying you need to squat dead or bench.
What I am saying is what ever way you train, to grow muscle you need to progress / get stronger.
If you train high reps, no problem. Leg press for quads, fine, but if you are squatting or using the leg press example. If today you are leg pressing 3 sets of 10 for a 100kg if you want your legs to be bigger in a couple months you better be stronger than that. Now that may be more sets eg 8 sets of 10 with the same weight, more reps eg 3 sets of 20 or super slow reps, or you up the weight to 150. But what ever way you train, to get bigger you have to get stronger in some way.
People saying strength is not important for muscle is bullshit. 1rm strength maybe not but that is only one way to display strength there are other areas you can progress. What ever way someone trains they have to get stronger.
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Bench Polkov
SIR BENCHALOT
I didn't say that, I just said the article was shit.
NightFallTech
Member
Which isn't contradictory to the article... the article really talks about not focusing on 1RM, however probably doesn't make clear enough that progression (ie strength increase) must occur...
Although sometimes the 'definition' of strength might be stretched... I'd argue time to cover 100km on a bike is more 'fitness' than strength, although muscle mass does increase...
Arguably what is being argued here is the definition of 'strength'
Which isn't contradictory to the article... the article really talks about not focusing on 1RM, however probably doesn't make clear enough that progression (ie strength increase) must occur...
Although sometimes the 'definition' of strength might be stretched... I'd argue time to cover 100km on a bike is more 'fitness' than strength, although muscle mass does increase...
Arguably what is being argued here is the definition of 'strength'
Like Freako said the article is shit. He tries to downplay strength or getting stronger as important by using stupid examples. Eg leg extensions for 2-3 reps. Who the fuck does that anyway. Or by comparing 2 separate people's squats.
Like I said strength is important because what ever way you train you have to get stronger. That could mean increasing your 15 reps sets.
He also tries to argue that low reps dont work for anyone but steroid users ( a bit much coming from him) or genetic freaks. I'm not either and it works for me and from reading this and other forums low reps works for others as well but I am in no way saying its the only way to do it.
Bench Polkov
SIR BENCHALOT
My experience... and admittedly, i'm not 'strong', although i have gotten stronger over the past few months (3RMs are +40KG squat, +15kg bench, +60kg dead), is that I get stronger at the 'big lifts' faster with low rep training (or i might just be learning better movement patterns..), but that my body shape changes more dramatically with 3-4 sets of 12-15 reps.
In my case that might just be because
A) i tend to injure myself more with low reps
B) i struggle to achieve the same intensity with low reps
C) I'm losing more fat with the increased energy expenditure and thus 'seeing more muscle' - definitely no ectomorph here.
D) I struggle to maintain form closer to my 1RM
I've been trying the 'strength' approach more recently and i just seem to racking up the injuries and 60 minutes after the workout, i'm not even feeling it... Which tells me i'm just not achieving the same intensity..
I'm also not built for the 'traditional lifts', I'm tall for a start with long levers and I don't remotely resemble a power lifters shape or large joints, so I think for those like me, while barbell compound exercises are obviously great, they are not the be all and end all for all lifters - For example, I struggle to come anywhere near working my quads with my squats, they are so much stronger/better leveraged than my hamstrings/glutes, to get a good quad workout, i'd have weight on my shoulders i just couldn't lift out of the hole - which is where leg press comes into play.
So, in short, low reps might work just as well in principle, but thats predisposed on the lifter being able to achieve appropriate intensity in short sets, which, i would say is arguably easier to achieve in longer sets. And where the 'power lifting' lifts are used, dependant on the lifter having suitably strong joints/ligaments and suitable levers to achieve heavy lifts without injury.
I'd also say that the most my quads & calves have ever grown was doing a lot of cycling (100km+ rides, and in hilly NZ), which is pretty high rep
Of course Bazza is right in that to get stronger you must have more muscle mass (although CNS adaptation is part of it as well - Its also possible to improve a lift with form improvements rather than increased strength), but the article agrees, saying that 'strength will come with development'. The article is simply suggesting that for somebody focused on building muscle mass over powerlifting, higher rep 'Development work' is more appropriate.
Another point is lifting dynamics... is a power lifting style bench maximizing arch, lat involvement, hip drive.. really of benefit if you are looking to improve muscle rather than increase your bench?
Clearly, for those built and inclined to power lifting (which Bazza clearly is), muscular development will come with the high weights lifted in strength training, however for others (like myself), i would struggle to achieve suitably high weights and intensity so close to my 1RM without injury, and therefore a lighter, but higher rep program would likely allow me to achieve my intensity with less injury.
You've missed the point by so much that I'm not even going to bother addressing all the arguments. I didn't say how you should train, I said it was shit. I just read it again, its still full of shit.
But I will say I'm not built for PL, I have small joints and narrow hips and I was the smallest kid in my class for most of my school years. I'm now top 20 in Oz. Your point is?
pumpiniron
New member
Yer mate and i agreed with you, i get what your saying.
pumpiniron
New member
Forget about str, for a second. str is something you get out of ur training. If u want to win a bodybuilding comp one day the truth is you will have to start doing a ton of isolation exercises at some point, train really hard, exhaust the fuck out of ur muscles, when getting more advanced do alot of things like drop sets and strip sets. A bodybuilders goal when they walk into the gym will be to demolish ur muscles, not *i have to lift more then last week*. You will get stronger, but the idea isnt to focus on that. You can increase the weight when u feel the weight you have been doing is to light for the number of reps ur doing for a particuliar exercise, not just for the sake of *i need to lift more then last week otherwise im not going to improve* That is what scott refers to in people *training for str* They worry to much on trying to lift more then they did the week before, which will lead to some using shit form, or resting longer just to lift a bit heavier.
He tells his clients not to even give a fuck about weight, go over to a leg extension machine (for example) for the pin in and say the set requieres 10-15 reps, do the set to failure, if u dont get 10-15 or hit failure at say 20, its not a big deal, just adjust the pin where you feel u will hit failure at 10-15 reps using *correct form*, to many people worry about lifting heavy or trying to lift more then they did the week before.
He tells his clients not to even give a fuck about weight, go over to a leg extension machine (for example) for the pin in and say the set requieres 10-15 reps, do the set to failure, if u dont get 10-15 or hit failure at say 20, its not a big deal, just adjust the pin where you feel u will hit failure at 10-15 reps using *correct form*, to many people worry about lifting heavy or trying to lift more then they did the week before.
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NightFallTech
Member
My research has shown that throwing lots of small rocks at trolls is much more effective than a few big ones...
John_Citizen
Banned
my contribution to this thread: is there a reason why you use str instead of strength Pump?
NightFallTech
Member
Closet Dungeons and Dragons player?