MaxBrenner
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Trent, you are so naughty....
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Gaining muscle while dropping fat.
- Thread starter MaxBrenner
- Start date
MaxBrenner
New member
Gaining Muscle while Dropping Fat Part 2 - The Carb Load/Cycling
The process of carbohydrate loading/cycling when dieting (dropping body fat while attempting to gain/maintain muscle or enhance exercise performance) has been the subject of many different protocols over the years.
The primary purpose of carbohydrate loading/cycling is to A) refill muscle glycogen and B) manipulate hormonal function (Thyroid, Leptin and Insulin).
PLEASE NOTE – Depending on the individual’s bodyfat levels, goal (desired body fat & overall composition), hormonal function, general day-to-day activity and training volume, carbohydrate cycling/loading may or may not be required/beneficial. Each case should be looked at on it’s own merits.
While long-term macronutrient, calorie intake and training stimulus determine body composition, it can be a little deep than that. Hormonal function and exercise performance also play a part in body composition, be it indirectly (stimulus load/volume ability – exercise performance) or directly (BMR and overall EE – hormonal function).
The two main carbohydrate loading/cycling protocols are the A) higher carbohydrate intake on training days (with lower fats and at maintenance calories or just above) and lower carbohydrate intake on non training days (with higher fats and in a calorie deficit) or B) 4 or 5 days of low carbohydrate intake followed be 3 or 2 of higher carbohydrate intake.
I could go quite in-depth on protocol’s pros and cons but IMO the only real thing that matters is what suits the individuals schedule and what ultimately allows for the best long term dietary adherence.
Martin Berkhan’s protocol (training days cycling) - Intermittent Fasting, Set-Point and Leptin | Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health
Lyle McDonald’s protocol (back to back day loading) - Research Review: An In-Depth Look Into Carbing Up On The Cyclical Ketogenic Diet With Lyle Mcdonald | SimplyShredded.com
I normally suggest a 4 or 5-day of low carbohydrate intake (while in a calorie deficit) followed by 3 or 2 days of carbohydrate loading (eating at maintenance or slightly above 5-10%). So the net result at the end of the cycle is still a calorie deficit, all be it small. I also find that the easiest way to adhere to the calorie requirements for the long term and also allowing for some added flexibility during the more social parts of the week (the weekend).
Even thought muscle glycogen is restored and can be restored in 1 day (with the right carbohydrate intake), other mechanisms like hormonal function have more of a positive reaction for the length of time with increased carbohydrate consumption not simply total amount consumed.
Expanding on exercise performance point. The existing exercise performance data (all be it done on endurance cardiovascular exercise) is mixed. Studies have suggested that once adaptations to the utilization of fat for fuel (5 days), a shorter carbohydrate load (1 day) still may not be enough to improve exercise performance. For a more in-depth look, check out this article by Lyle McDonald - Cyclical Ketogenic Diets and Endurance Performance | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald
So with that in mind, from a performance point of view, maybe a more regular and more moderate cycling period may be of some benefit.
The key point being the amount of carbohydrates to be consumed, the length of time with increased consumption, the amount being used during exercise and the amount we can store that ultimately lead manipulating intake to maximize muscle gain or at least maintaining muscle while dropping body fat.
Technical Shit
Carbohydrate amount does not equal the amount of glycogen. They have separate units of measure are not of equal quantities/units of measure. 5.5 grams of carbohydrates = 1 millimole (mmol) of glycogen.
Trained individuals have higher glycogen storage abilities both due to dietary carbohydrate intake and larger/active muscle tissues. They (athletes) have glycogen levels at 110-130 mmol/kg.
Fat oxidization increases at rest and during aerobic exercise at muscle glycogen levels of 70 mmol/kg (or 12 grams carbohydrates/kg). Levels below 40 mmol/kg = 7 grams of carbohydrates/kg impairs exercise performance and increases the potential for protein to be used as fuel.
Glycogen super-compensation can increase levels to 175 mmol/kg if glycogen is depleted to a great amount (which is around 25-30 mmol/kg). Total exhaustion during exercise occurs when levels drop to 15-25 mmol/kg and the enzymes for super-compensation are also impaired at that level (below 25 mmol/kg).
At 70% 1RM, glycogen is depleted at approx. 1.3 mmol/kg/repetition. Basically for every 2 sets of 10 reps, you will use 5.5 grams of carbohydrates as fuel. Endurance athletes will use more during a training session compared to a weight lifter.
(NOTE - I will add some additional studies etc to it but the basis of it is completed and I wanted to post it as soon as it was completed) Also if Shrek doesn't mind, could you please join them together in one thread
The process of carbohydrate loading/cycling when dieting (dropping body fat while attempting to gain/maintain muscle or enhance exercise performance) has been the subject of many different protocols over the years.
The primary purpose of carbohydrate loading/cycling is to A) refill muscle glycogen and B) manipulate hormonal function (Thyroid, Leptin and Insulin).
PLEASE NOTE – Depending on the individual’s bodyfat levels, goal (desired body fat & overall composition), hormonal function, general day-to-day activity and training volume, carbohydrate cycling/loading may or may not be required/beneficial. Each case should be looked at on it’s own merits.
While long-term macronutrient, calorie intake and training stimulus determine body composition, it can be a little deep than that. Hormonal function and exercise performance also play a part in body composition, be it indirectly (stimulus load/volume ability – exercise performance) or directly (BMR and overall EE – hormonal function).
The two main carbohydrate loading/cycling protocols are the A) higher carbohydrate intake on training days (with lower fats and at maintenance calories or just above) and lower carbohydrate intake on non training days (with higher fats and in a calorie deficit) or B) 4 or 5 days of low carbohydrate intake followed be 3 or 2 of higher carbohydrate intake.
I could go quite in-depth on protocol’s pros and cons but IMO the only real thing that matters is what suits the individuals schedule and what ultimately allows for the best long term dietary adherence.
Martin Berkhan’s protocol (training days cycling) - Intermittent Fasting, Set-Point and Leptin | Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health
Lyle McDonald’s protocol (back to back day loading) - Research Review: An In-Depth Look Into Carbing Up On The Cyclical Ketogenic Diet With Lyle Mcdonald | SimplyShredded.com
I normally suggest a 4 or 5-day of low carbohydrate intake (while in a calorie deficit) followed by 3 or 2 days of carbohydrate loading (eating at maintenance or slightly above 5-10%). So the net result at the end of the cycle is still a calorie deficit, all be it small. I also find that the easiest way to adhere to the calorie requirements for the long term and also allowing for some added flexibility during the more social parts of the week (the weekend).
Even thought muscle glycogen is restored and can be restored in 1 day (with the right carbohydrate intake), other mechanisms like hormonal function have more of a positive reaction for the length of time with increased carbohydrate consumption not simply total amount consumed.
Expanding on exercise performance point. The existing exercise performance data (all be it done on endurance cardiovascular exercise) is mixed. Studies have suggested that once adaptations to the utilization of fat for fuel (5 days), a shorter carbohydrate load (1 day) still may not be enough to improve exercise performance. For a more in-depth look, check out this article by Lyle McDonald - Cyclical Ketogenic Diets and Endurance Performance | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald
So with that in mind, from a performance point of view, maybe a more regular and more moderate cycling period may be of some benefit.
The key point being the amount of carbohydrates to be consumed, the length of time with increased consumption, the amount being used during exercise and the amount we can store that ultimately lead manipulating intake to maximize muscle gain or at least maintaining muscle while dropping body fat.
Technical Shit
Carbohydrate amount does not equal the amount of glycogen. They have separate units of measure are not of equal quantities/units of measure. 5.5 grams of carbohydrates = 1 millimole (mmol) of glycogen.
Trained individuals have higher glycogen storage abilities both due to dietary carbohydrate intake and larger/active muscle tissues. They (athletes) have glycogen levels at 110-130 mmol/kg.
Fat oxidization increases at rest and during aerobic exercise at muscle glycogen levels of 70 mmol/kg (or 12 grams carbohydrates/kg). Levels below 40 mmol/kg = 7 grams of carbohydrates/kg impairs exercise performance and increases the potential for protein to be used as fuel.
Glycogen super-compensation can increase levels to 175 mmol/kg if glycogen is depleted to a great amount (which is around 25-30 mmol/kg). Total exhaustion during exercise occurs when levels drop to 15-25 mmol/kg and the enzymes for super-compensation are also impaired at that level (below 25 mmol/kg).
At 70% 1RM, glycogen is depleted at approx. 1.3 mmol/kg/repetition. Basically for every 2 sets of 10 reps, you will use 5.5 grams of carbohydrates as fuel. Endurance athletes will use more during a training session compared to a weight lifter.
(NOTE - I will add some additional studies etc to it but the basis of it is completed and I wanted to post it as soon as it was completed) Also if Shrek doesn't mind, could you please join them together in one thread
Rugby88
I have Ep1c Calendar kunce
x 2
MaxBrenner
New member
Thanks guys. Will finish updating soon
chocchillimango
Well-known member
Great post, well researched!
Actually, if you have time to go into the issues with gaining LBM for already lean individuals that would be awesome.
I'm in a minority probably as I'm currently in the athlete range for body fat storage (ie beyond lean on a DEXA analysis) but have an absolute shiite load of LBM to gain (after losing quite a bit due to illness a while ago).
I've got the training program down pat but would be good to understand some of the things to be aware of to ensure the diet is cutting the mustard, so to speak.
If you have time, that is :-D
Actually, if you have time to go into the issues with gaining LBM for already lean individuals that would be awesome.
I'm in a minority probably as I'm currently in the athlete range for body fat storage (ie beyond lean on a DEXA analysis) but have an absolute shiite load of LBM to gain (after losing quite a bit due to illness a while ago).
I've got the training program down pat but would be good to understand some of the things to be aware of to ensure the diet is cutting the mustard, so to speak.
If you have time, that is :-D
MaxBrenner
New member
I think it is really basic for people like yourself. Consume 35 kcal/kg and ensure those calories have at least 2g/kg protein and 0.8g/kg fats.
In terms of actualy macronutrient breakdown, it will un-important as long as the minimums are met. Just ensure at least 100-150g of carbohydrates are consumed at all times.
Follow that for 2-3 weeks and track your progress then simply increase or decrease calories accordingly by 10% and repeat the process
MaxBrenner
New member
No worries at allThanks for the continuing wealth of knowledge you are imparting upon us all
0ni
Registered Rustler
Just have a few questions:
I will eventually be wanting to cut fat off using a keto type diet.
I will be using a diabeetus thing to check my blood sugar, what level of blood sugar should I "aim" to achieve? I was thinking 70mmol/kg? What is a good range?
Do you have a sample weekly diet for the average gym rat? Assuming that they are say 90kg, 180cm, 12% body fat and want to get down to 8%. I probably don't need exact foods, just macro ratios & total calories for each day of the week and assuming the subject trains mon,tue,thurs,fri
And do these suggestions change at all if someone is slamming 500mg of testosterone a week? Just want to get an idea of how everything would look when laid down and in a few situations
I will eventually be wanting to cut fat off using a keto type diet.
I will be using a diabeetus thing to check my blood sugar, what level of blood sugar should I "aim" to achieve? I was thinking 70mmol/kg? What is a good range?
Do you have a sample weekly diet for the average gym rat? Assuming that they are say 90kg, 180cm, 12% body fat and want to get down to 8%. I probably don't need exact foods, just macro ratios & total calories for each day of the week and assuming the subject trains mon,tue,thurs,fri
And do these suggestions change at all if someone is slamming 500mg of testosterone a week? Just want to get an idea of how everything would look when laid down and in a few situations
MaxBrenner
New member
OK- Question for MaxBrenner Re carb intake and fat loss
So, lifting every second day- Full body compounds only
Muay thai every night
Also light jogging and walking during the week.
Cals are 2000, 225P 100C and 78 F
What would determine if my carbs are to low? can i base it on how i feel and overall energy levels?
By no mean am i affraid of carbs- i just find this to be a good ratios of macros for 2000 cals.
Also like to mention- Lifts are increaing weekly
So, lifting every second day- Full body compounds only
Muay thai every night
Also light jogging and walking during the week.
Cals are 2000, 225P 100C and 78 F
What would determine if my carbs are to low? can i base it on how i feel and overall energy levels?
By no mean am i affraid of carbs- i just find this to be a good ratios of macros for 2000 cals.
Also like to mention- Lifts are increaing weekly